I Need Help Please Citroen Xantia 97, 1.9td

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 16 Aug 2010, 15:30

I have this xantia. When i got it the turbo was not working properly due to the pipe running from the intercooler pipe to the top of the fuel pump being split so i have now replaced, i have also replaced both the fuel and the air filters.

Now the issue left is i can see air bubbles (now less than before after replacing the fuel filter) in the clear fuel line between the filter housing and the pump. (bosch model i beleive) and i have ensured it is secured correctly.

There is a lack of power up hill and the engine seems to take a long time to rev high under load, when the turbo works it kicks in between 2600-3000 rpm and it kicks out some black smoke at higher rev. (now less than before) it is not loosing oil.

so i am lost now on what to do the injectors seem fine although it does have th "K" light on the dash constantly

please i need help and no money!

i need any ideas and they will all be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Morph.

spider · Post by **spider** » 17 Aug 2010, 13:22

Only just noticed this, otherwise I would of posted earlier.

There's two faults here.

First the air ingress, it may be the seal on the filter lid itself or (less likely) the seal underneath the bottom of the filter housing (where the bolt sits)

Regarding the 'k' light, there's various causes. When a problem is detected it locks the pump advance / retard as this is ECU controlled. The most common cause is the injector sensor or its wire.

On one of the injector's there's a small, thin wire attached, carefully inspect this and ensure it is actually connected.

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 17 Aug 2010, 15:03

thanks for the help was getting a little lost, the air filter box is well sealed although it is a straight through opening.

as for the injector sensor the wire looks ok but there is no change when i disconnect the block how would i fix this if there was a problem with it?

thanks

Morph.

spider · Post by **spider** » 17 Aug 2010, 18:09

No, I meant the seal on the fuel filter area, not the air filter

Regarding the injector wire. Turn the engine off and then unplug this if possible (look for a plug not at the injector end but further down as you do not want to risk breaking anything)

Now start the engine with it disconnected. Do not run it for too long like this, see if it sounds any different (it should sound a bit horrendous to be honest) , if there's no change that's likely to be the problem in that the sensor is faulty, less likely is the ECU or the pump itself at fault.

Its been a few years since I saw one (and not at a garage now either) not sure if its replaceable without that injector or not. But see if there's any difference without it connected (the thin wire to the injector)

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 17 Aug 2010, 18:58

do not use any sort of sealer like silicon rubber under the fuel filter houseing, i have seen this before and it can cause all kinds of problems like blockages,

regards malcolm

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 17 Aug 2010, 19:57

thanks for your help guys all of this is really usefull,

for the injector fault i have already tried this and not any noticeable change in engine tone when the cable is disconnected so any thoughts on where i might get a replacement injector? (no money so cheapest possible lol)

sorry about the air filter mix up. i thought the housing was sat right on top of the thermostat wouldnt it leak coolant in the fuel if the seal was dodgey?
and when fitting the new filter i checked the top seal to make sure all was ok it sat in there well and tightly there are no air bubbles and its a good new thick rubber seal i also ensured i diagonally tighten the bolts progressivly so that it was an even clamp down on the lid.

if not and i take it apart what do i look for around the bottom of the housing.?
any simple fixes? of course not using silicon

could the "K" light fault be caused by the air in the fuel? eg The injector or something detecting abnormal fuel flow?

hugest thanks again.

PS any thoughts why the turbo is kicking in so late or is this all connected?

sorry so many questions i am used to TD engines (honda series in a Rover 620 TD) but this one is so much more electronic and i have run out of thoughts lol

spider · Post by **spider** » 17 Aug 2010, 20:08

The timing will be static so it will be noisy, smoky and probably sluggish

The 'k' light is because I would assume there's no signal from that injector, it would not come on for air in fuel.

Scrapyard for injector if money is very tight.

The filter housing, no they won't leak out, they just suck air in. The single bolt under the filter holds it to the thermostat housing. New seal here (the big o ring that sits between the thermostat housing and the fuel filter)

I would sort the injector problem out first to be honest, if its running the air ingress cannot be really horrendous, although it does need doing but sort injector out first.

Post by **CitroJim** » 17 Aug 2010, 21:30

Before going replacing the needle lift sensor injector, you ca do a quick test of it by measuring its resistance. It should be in the region of 100 ohms.

Another set of tests is to disconnect the TDC sensor on the gearbox bellhousing (brown connector) and with the needle lift sensor reconnected, restart the engine and see if the tacho is working. If it is not them the sensor is dead. You can do much to test the TDC sensor . Basically, from start, the tacho will operate with either a TDC sensor signal or a Needle Lift Sensor signal.

The ECU only controls timing and the only reason the K light comes on is if the pump is incapable of responding to its timing adjustment commands. basically it commands the pump and checks the pump has carried out the command by measuring the time difference between needle lift pulses and TDC pulses. The whole shebang works in a feedback loop.

One good reason for the timing not following an ECU command is low fuel pressure. The timing within the pump is hydraulically controlled and the hydraulic medium is the diesel fuel itself. If it is full of bubbles or not flowing at the right rate than insufficient pressure is generated by the lift/transfer pump to operate the timing device piston properly. There is actually a high flow through the pump and even a small blockage or air ingress can wreak havoc. Such a problem will show up on a Lexia as a Timing Motion fault.

If all your work to diagnose draws a blank, get a Lexia Diagnostic session carried out. It will very quickly pinpoint the problem and there are many of us on here with Lexia machines.

Finally, check the ECU connector. Twice now I've seen them full of damp verdigris and the conductive nature of this stuff can bring on the K light and upset the timing. A spray of electronic switch cleaner and a blow with an airline normally cleans everything up a treat. If it is this, keep an eye as sometimes a leaking Coolant temperature sensor can send antifreeze all along the wire to the ECU connector by capillary action!

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 19 Aug 2010, 15:06

Hey guys sorry for the late reply.

Right, just tried the car with out the crank sensor,

the rev counter works (goes up when you put your foot on the throttle) but then drops to zero straight away when you take your foot off,

without the crank or injector sensor connected the rev counter does not work at all. i have a picture which i will post later (at work atm) of a green wire which has been cut in the loom near the crank sensor. a new wire has been connected to the firewall end of the green wire and this new wire dissapears under the car towards the rear. not sure where it goes just as yet, (this was a quick look during my lunch break)

Any more ideas on what to do next?

Thanks

Morph.

spider · Post by **spider** » 19 Aug 2010, 15:31

The sign that the rev counter works (although 'not' properly) is a good sign that the TDC sensor is alive and working.

My initial thought now is again the injector sensor.

Not sure about the wiring around it, was it a taxi at any point ? , I've seen meter's spliced into these wires for that before (along with the speedo feed)

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 19 Aug 2010, 15:50

the rev counter works with either the injector plugged in or the tdc center plugedd in doesnt that mean that they are both working? and no i dont think it was a taxi.

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 19 Aug 2010, 15:56

the rev counter rises with the injector sensor pluged in as it normally would. just when you take your foot off the throttle it drops to zero immediatly. not falling slowly.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 19 Aug 2010, 16:56

The injector lift sensor works off the mechanical movement of the injector. If you deccelerate, the fuel pump won't be pumping any fuel to the injectors, thus the injector won't "pulse", is my guess. I'll have to test that theory to be sure.

It is possible that air in the fuel will cause a lack of pressure in the pump resulting in timing faults which will bring the K-light on.

Hope that helps clarify your findings.

I too recommend you get a Lexia on it, have you checked the Lexia map to see who's nearest you?

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 19 Aug 2010, 17:11

will try and sort air in fuel

the nearest lexia to me is like two hours away or more in bath lol

morph_1904 · Post by **morph_1904** » 22 Aug 2010, 12:02

Hey guys,

The saga goes on,

I had a little issiue, i took off the filter housing to have a look underneath.
it was a mess
so cleaned it up and put it back on things were looking much better better power much much less smoke al was going well

then suddenly she died on me,

did some investigation and there was a crack in the housing near to where te water screw part met the main body and was pissing out fuel.

so my mate had a smashed xara with the zud engine same filter housing so i pinched that and put it on after he towed me to it,

i have put that on air bubbles now not there, (maybe a tiny tiny few)

and the low power and smoke is back????????

oh and the k light is still on.

I looked at the connections on the ecu forgot to put it back on, and then proceded to start the car by the way it satarted fine and there was no k light on the dash, i dont think it should have started?????

so not so sure now,

to recap

now there is not a problem with TDC sensor, Lift sensor in injector 3 no air in fuel and the only thing lgy on ful system that is broken is the cold start cable

HELP!

thanks again

Morph.