Xantia 1.9TD 1995 ENGINE REBUILD DISASTER!

igor253 · Unread post by **igor253** » 11 Aug 2010, 18:37

Ok boys and girls, this is the story. My Xantia engine was in terrible state, it was pushing out dense black smoke, acceleration was well there was no acceleration. So I went to a mechanic, he told me that there was nothing he can do except rebuild the engine. So I said fine, do what you got to do, I paid 1700 euros, and then after about two weeks, he finished the car, and he said I can't push it to its maximum, because it needs to pass about 2000km so that it can run smoothly. So 2000km later, I sit in my car push it to its maximum, and find out that there is still dense smoke coming out the back, the acceleration was even worse than it was before the rebuild, Even its maximum speed is now reduced to 140km/h and before his so called master-fix it was going 170km/h WITH A NON-WORKING TURBOCHARGER. So long story short, after going back and forth 100x and him telling me all kind of unlimited possibility what could be wrong with the car, + he refused to give me my money back, I decided to nail this bastard. There is no way that here in the balkans I can settle this matter peacefully and through expencive laywers and court.

I need you guys to tell me what exactly is considered a engine rebuild, and what parts are supposed to be REPLACED and which parts are put back? So what I need is, I need to know what parts of the engine are being rebuilt/fixed? And then I'll take it from there.

Thank you so much!

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 11 Aug 2010, 20:27

Sounds you ran in cash first without asking Questions first.....

lack smoke and no acceleration indicates enough fuel going in but NOT enough Air to burn the Over fueling...

I would have thought from what you said is that your turbo unit was not working, OR the engine was loosing boost pressure into the engine!

Theres a pipes that goes from the top of the fuel pump (Bosch Pumps) to the side of one of the turbo air pipes... If there was lots of smoke my guess is the Pump Over Fueling device was sensing the turbo boost but the engine was not reciving the boost air... So there could have been a possibility that one of the intercooler pipes - of which theres one on each side of the radiator, could have come away, and not letting the boost air into the engine... Ive seen intercooler pipes split now giving the same symptons as you, it was the intercooler pipe on the gearbox side of the unit...

Turbo flow, is out of the turbo on the back of the engine, accross the engine, to under the battery area, into the intercooler, out the other side, and into the engine.... theres approx up to 6 areas of hose clips that can come apart to let boost pressure out...

Paul

igor253 · Unread post by **igor253** » 12 Aug 2010, 01:25

citroenxm wrote:Sounds you ran in cash first without asking Questions first.....

lack smoke and no acceleration indicates enough fuel going in but NOT enough Air to burn the Over fueling...

I would have thought from what you said is that your turbo unit was not working, OR the engine was loosing boost pressure into the engine!

Theres a pipes that goes from the top of the fuel pump (Bosch Pumps) to the side of one of the turbo air pipes... If there was lots of smoke my guess is the Pump Over Fueling device was sensing the turbo boost but the engine was not reciving the boost air... So there could have been a possibility that one of the intercooler pipes - of which theres one on each side of the radiator, could have come away, and not letting the boost air into the engine... Ive seen intercooler pipes split now giving the same symptons as you, it was the intercooler pipe on the gearbox side of the unit...

Turbo flow, is out of the turbo on the back of the engine, accross the engine, to under the battery area, into the intercooler, out the other side, and into the engine.... theres approx up to 6 areas of hose clips that can come apart to let boost pressure out...

Paul

Thank you for repling,

Ok frist things frist, yes I made a mistake of giving cash a bit too soon before asking around. The thing is, this guy was not some small time wanna be machanic. This guy has his own company/workshop/firm so it looked pretty honest and he was really nice at first seemed like he knew what he was doing, but in the end I was wrong. That guy is all make up and no intelligance. + I didn't really know much about cars so after his story I thought it made sense.

Anyway, after asking around a bit about all these things, it wasn't hard for me to come to a conclusion that obviously it was a problem with the turbo charger. And after talking with him 100x about this problem, he just didn't care. He says ok leave the car here will fix it. So I leave it, and I come back after 2-3 days, he says it's ready I sit in the car and there is no difference, and same story over and over again. So what esle can I do, you can tell me what exactly is fixed/replaced in an engine rebuild, so I can go over the details what he did and didn't do. Then after I find out I seattle this easy/hard way.

I mean there's no ending to this story, there are a lot of things that had nothing to do with the engine problem, and he decided to play with the car. One of the things he did, the moron filled up the container with LHM fluid all the way to the top. So after I picked up the car, i press the brake and no action what so ever, luckily I pulled the handbrake and avoided the crash in the center of the city, the guy is a moron. that's not even half of it...

Thank you again, and please if you could just give me the list of all the engine parts that are being repalced/fixed during the rebuild, that would really help.

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 12 Aug 2010, 06:44

I do not believe there is a standard set of parts which is replaced in an engine rebuild.
If you have paid for him to fix your engine problems and he hasn't, does you country have consumer laws and organisations to protect you?

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 12 Aug 2010, 08:09

A New turbo would be easy to spot, it would be rather tidy and clean, as a turbo is on the exhaust it goes a grey rusty colour with age...

Most things you replace are internal, inside the head for example. Valve guides, and seals, valves.. Bottom ends rarely give any trouble, and on models up to around 1997 extreamilly bomb proof unless you been missing the oil changes!!

My 1994 model is now on 231k MILES (371k KM) and still hardly uses any oil or water... thought the head gasket was done around 170k miles...

As I mentioned a Black smoke problem is nothing to do with engine wear and was simply a Fuel Air or fuel pump problem...

Paul

igor253 · Unread post by **igor253** » 12 Aug 2010, 15:37

Xac wrote:I do not believe there is a standard set of parts which is replaced in an engine rebuild.
If you have paid for him to fix your engine problems and he hasn't, does you country have consumer laws and organisations to protect you?

Yeah, there are some corrupted consumer organizations if thats what you had in mind

Thats why I can only solve this by myself.

Thanks!

igor253 · Unread post by **igor253** » 12 Aug 2010, 15:44

citroenxm wrote:A New turbo would be easy to spot, it would be rather tidy and clean, as a turbo is on the exhaust it goes a grey rusty colour with age...

Most things you replace are internal, inside the head for example. Valve guides, and seals, valves.. Bottom ends rarely give any trouble, and on models up to around 1997 extreamilly bomb proof unless you been missing the oil changes!!

My 1994 model is now on 231k MILES (371k KM) and still hardly uses any oil or water... thought the head gasket was done around 170k miles...

As I mentioned a Black smoke problem is nothing to do with engine wear and was simply a Fuel Air or fuel pump problem...

Paul

Ok, thanks Paul, it totally makes sense what you said. Now, I have to ask you for one more favor. Could you somehow upload a sketch/picture, of the route the air takes from the turbo to the engine and intercooler, so I can check for air leaks like you mentioned.
Thank you!

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 14 Aug 2010, 01:40

Full rebuild includes crank bearings, main bearings and crank work as necessary after tests and inspection. Half rebuild includes piston/conrod/little ends inspection and replacement as necessary, valve and spring replacement and regrinds, guide replacement or honing, ring change and barrel honing, port cleaning, thread repair.

Half-rebuild is the norm for a rebuild , unless full is specified. In the UK we have a 'gold seal' standard carried out by specialist workshops, costing around £1, 200 for a xantiqa diesel I think. That makes yours expensive for the Balkans especially, he's charged a lot for dismantling. I would guess he's just replaced rings, possibly done honing, by having the block honed, but I guess just a de-glaze with a drill. Proper honing takes speciality engineering equipment and is precise. Garages don't normally (but may sometimes) do rebuilds beacuse the workshops are cost-effective and standards generally higher - also it's time consuming to take stuff to the engineer for honing etc., With specialists for older cars mecahnics more often get invloved with rebuilds, and generally mechanics will sometimes do partial rebuilds - honing and rings, and even head work, or just replace one burnt pistion etc..
Specialist performance mecahnics go further...

have more quipment for the job, : and are good friends with various engineers, enjoying a good beer with together, possibly having swapped girlfriends in their younger days, and still remained friends.

Haven't a clue how your legal system works, but if it's unusual it won't be very corrupted or twisted.

Anyway, you might start by requesting in a 'notice and demand' for receipts for parts supplied in order to be able to get a look at what's been done; Stating on it why, because the work has left it in that condition, and in order to eliminate doubts. Failure to reply defaults to work carried out not according to spec. But then 'rebuild' could just mean rings and hone. So no real joy. Your rebuild order gave no spec. So all in all , I think no joy there.

Sounds like you're handling it in good spirit, which is admirable. 'Worse things happen at sea', and that experience will stand you in good stead for all business.

Best wishes.

igor253 · Unread post by **igor253** » 17 Aug 2010, 18:20

John Plum wrote:Full rebuild includes crank bearings, main bearings and crank work as necessary after tests and inspection. Half rebuild includes piston/conrod/little ends inspection and replacement as necessary, valve and spring replacement and regrinds, guide replacement or honing, ring change and barrel honing, port cleaning, thread repair.

Half-rebuild is the norm for a rebuild , unless full is specified. In the UK we have a 'gold seal' standard carried out by specialist workshops, costing around £1, 200 for a xantiqa diesel I think. That makes yours expensive for the Balkans especially, he's charged a lot for dismantling. I would guess he's just replaced rings, possibly done honing, by having the block honed, but I guess just a de-glaze with a drill. Proper honing takes speciality engineering equipment and is precise. Garages don't normally (but may sometimes) do rebuilds beacuse the workshops are cost-effective and standards generally higher - also it's time consuming to take stuff to the engineer for honing etc., With specialists for older cars mecahnics more often get invloved with rebuilds, and generally mechanics will sometimes do partial rebuilds - honing and rings, and even head work, or just replace one burnt pistion etc..
Specialist performance mecahnics go further... have more quipment for the job, : and are good friends with various engineers, enjoying a good beer with together, possibly having swapped girlfriends in their younger days, and still remained friends.

Haven't a clue how your legal system works, but if it's unusual it won't be very corrupted or twisted. Anyway, you might start by requesting in a 'notice and demand' for receipts for parts supplied in order to be able to get a look at what's been done; Stating on it why, because the work has left it in that condition, and in order to eliminate doubts. Failure to reply defaults to work carried out not according to spec. But then 'rebuild' could just mean rings and hone. So no real joy. Your rebuild order gave no spec. So all in all , I think no joy there.

Sounds like you're handling it in good spirit, which is admirable. 'Worse things happen at sea', and that experience will stand you in good stead for all business.

Best wishes.

Thank you for taking time to list the parts that a rebuild requires. This will help A LOT

I already took my time and asked around, different workshop for their general price on engine rebuilds. It is twice as less expencive than I paid, even the real Citroen workshop (and they are supposed to be the most expencive in the country) even they didn't ask for that much money.

As for the legal system here, what can I say DISASTER, noone gives a s@#% about anyone but themselves. The notice and demand for the receipts... I already have a deatiled receipt, but I'm not sure you understand how these guys work

they put in the receipt all kinds of stuff, and do very little or possibly nothing to the car. That is the big problem, noone keeps record of whats done and whats not done

But again, thank you for your help, it really will help a lot

Btw, the biggest problem here is that the country is full of these deceivers/frauds, I believe thats the word. An dthe goverment is doing nothing about it, and a few honest people that are still here, who are the only ones that are trying to earn money the right way are the ones who get played over and over, and ofcourse they can't turn to the police, and when they take the law into their own hands they go to jail, and the real bad guy continues sitting in his nice office with a bag full of my honest money.