Timing belt side wear
Hi everybody,
I have a P306 diesel with the engine XUD9, I replace the timing belt and both idler and tensioner whells, but I check the belt and it is running touching so much the harmonic balancer pulley. I revised all the installation and every is fine, but the belt is still running far away the center of the camshaft and diesel pump sprockets. It seems to be a missalignment of a pulley but it could not be a crankshaft or cam pulley, it might be a diesel pump pulley or an idle/tensioners whells. From the marks in the original idle whell the belt seems to be running from the factory in this way, but see the wear on the side of new belt is not so happy.
Does anyone knows how fit this problem.
Thanks, Aníbal
timing belt side wear
Moderator: RichardW
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the_weaver
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Anibal
I've got a similar problem on my Citroen ZX 1.9D. My cambelt is running 1mm off the edge of the diesel pump sprocket for some reason. I don't know about side wear because I've only turned the engine over by hand so far. I haven't started the car. The cambelt runs 1mm over the edge of the diesel pump sprocket, towards the direction of the offside wing. Where is your cambelt running on the pump and camshaft sprockets? Is it on the sprockets but near the edge? Or is is off the edge of the sprockets? What make of tensioner and idler did you fit? Where is the belt running on the idler pulley? How close to the edge of the pulley?
Paul
I've got a similar problem on my Citroen ZX 1.9D. My cambelt is running 1mm off the edge of the diesel pump sprocket for some reason. I don't know about side wear because I've only turned the engine over by hand so far. I haven't started the car. The cambelt runs 1mm over the edge of the diesel pump sprocket, towards the direction of the offside wing. Where is your cambelt running on the pump and camshaft sprockets? Is it on the sprockets but near the edge? Or is is off the edge of the sprockets? What make of tensioner and idler did you fit? Where is the belt running on the idler pulley? How close to the edge of the pulley?
Paul
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the_weaver
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Wheeler.
That's a useful bit of advice. There does seems to be a lot of rust and I was thinking of removing the injection pump and bracket to clean it all up. However I was put off by the difficulty of removing (and refitting) the pump sprocket and I haven't got any new banjo union seals. Is it possible to remove the pump enough without disconnecting the banjo unions? If you've actually seen the rust causing a problem then it might be worth me doing it.
I've got a thread going in the Citroen forum about some of the problems I've had. I'll post a link over there to this post.
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... sc&start=0
Paul
That's a useful bit of advice. There does seems to be a lot of rust and I was thinking of removing the injection pump and bracket to clean it all up. However I was put off by the difficulty of removing (and refitting) the pump sprocket and I haven't got any new banjo union seals. Is it possible to remove the pump enough without disconnecting the banjo unions? If you've actually seen the rust causing a problem then it might be worth me doing it.
I've got a thread going in the Citroen forum about some of the problems I've had. I'll post a link over there to this post.
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... sc&start=0
Paul
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the_weaver
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I've posted this question in the Citroen forum as well:-
Is it possible to lift the injection pump out a bit and remove the pump bracket for the purpose of cleaning rust build up, without disconnecting everything? I realise I will have to disconnect the four pipes to the fuel injectors, and remove the pump sprocket. I was wondering whether I could get away without disconnecting the fuel in/out banjo unions and the accelerator and fast idle cables. I was thinking of lifting the pump about a foot and supporting it on a piece of wood with tie wraps or something.
Paul
Is it possible to lift the injection pump out a bit and remove the pump bracket for the purpose of cleaning rust build up, without disconnecting everything? I realise I will have to disconnect the four pipes to the fuel injectors, and remove the pump sprocket. I was wondering whether I could get away without disconnecting the fuel in/out banjo unions and the accelerator and fast idle cables. I was thinking of lifting the pump about a foot and supporting it on a piece of wood with tie wraps or something.
Paul
Dear Paul
Sorry for the delay but I was out of my house.
Ok mi timing belt is running in limit of the edge of the diesel pump sprocket. But what really worries me is that the poly V crankshaft pulley is polish on the inner side, away of the shaft by the timing belt. After several miles the belt start to present some small wear on the side for some reason and as understand there is not adjust to correct this problem. My new timing belt (hutchinson) is running on all the sprockets close to the edge, in the diesel pump it is at the edge and in the camshaft sprocket is about 1mm inside. I can not see how it’s running on the water pump sprocket because I have already installed the belt covers.
Concerning the tensioner and idler, I have installed INA made in France for both. The old ones were INA tensioner and SKF Germany idler. But as I noted the problem seems to be from a long time ago (may be from the factory) because the previous timing belt was running in the similar way.
On the idler pulley the timing belt is running at about 2mm from the edge. I checked the surface wear on the old idler and now on the new idler the belt is running about 1mm closer to the edge. But again the problem seem to be that the belt is touching so much on the inner part of the poly V crankshaft pulley.
Thanks Anibal
Sorry for the delay but I was out of my house.
Ok mi timing belt is running in limit of the edge of the diesel pump sprocket. But what really worries me is that the poly V crankshaft pulley is polish on the inner side, away of the shaft by the timing belt. After several miles the belt start to present some small wear on the side for some reason and as understand there is not adjust to correct this problem. My new timing belt (hutchinson) is running on all the sprockets close to the edge, in the diesel pump it is at the edge and in the camshaft sprocket is about 1mm inside. I can not see how it’s running on the water pump sprocket because I have already installed the belt covers.
Concerning the tensioner and idler, I have installed INA made in France for both. The old ones were INA tensioner and SKF Germany idler. But as I noted the problem seems to be from a long time ago (may be from the factory) because the previous timing belt was running in the similar way.
On the idler pulley the timing belt is running at about 2mm from the edge. I checked the surface wear on the old idler and now on the new idler the belt is running about 1mm closer to the edge. But again the problem seem to be that the belt is touching so much on the inner part of the poly V crankshaft pulley.
Thanks Anibal
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the_weaver
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Anibal
I think the cambelt usually runs closer to one side of the cam sprocket and the diesel pump sprocket. It runs nearer to the edge closest to the offside wing. My cambelt has always run very close to the edge of the pump sprocket, but now it's running 1mm over the edge. It seems difficult to solve the problem. I changed my idler and tensioner. It made the problem slightly worse. I originally had an INA idler, and a SKF tensioner. Now I've fitted an INA idler and a INA tensioner.
Do you have any wear in the crankshaft pulley? Mine seems a bit worn. I don't know if it has any effect or not.
I'm working on my car now. If I fix the problem I will let you know.
Paul
I think the cambelt usually runs closer to one side of the cam sprocket and the diesel pump sprocket. It runs nearer to the edge closest to the offside wing. My cambelt has always run very close to the edge of the pump sprocket, but now it's running 1mm over the edge. It seems difficult to solve the problem. I changed my idler and tensioner. It made the problem slightly worse. I originally had an INA idler, and a SKF tensioner. Now I've fitted an INA idler and a INA tensioner.
Do you have any wear in the crankshaft pulley? Mine seems a bit worn. I don't know if it has any effect or not.
I'm working on my car now. If I fix the problem I will let you know.
Paul
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the_weaver
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I've worked out a way to disconect the pump without undoing the banjo bolts now.
I've discovered that my cambelt is moving from side to side slightly, when the engine is turned over by hand. It goes from slightly off the diesel pump sprocket, to slightly on the pump sprocket.
It looks like the ZX has got bolts and spacers holding the diesel pump bracket on. I can't see any dowels (although I haven't dismantled it yet). Does the lack of dowels mean that it will be sloppy when I reassemble it, and will I have to realign the pump sprocket to the cam sprocket, using a straight edge or something? I'm wondering if I'm going to have a bigger alignment problem caused by disassembling it. Can I rely on the bolts to locate it correctly, once the rust is cleared, or does it require alignment by me?
Paul
I've discovered that my cambelt is moving from side to side slightly, when the engine is turned over by hand. It goes from slightly off the diesel pump sprocket, to slightly on the pump sprocket.
It looks like the ZX has got bolts and spacers holding the diesel pump bracket on. I can't see any dowels (although I haven't dismantled it yet). Does the lack of dowels mean that it will be sloppy when I reassemble it, and will I have to realign the pump sprocket to the cam sprocket, using a straight edge or something? I'm wondering if I'm going to have a bigger alignment problem caused by disassembling it. Can I rely on the bolts to locate it correctly, once the rust is cleared, or does it require alignment by me?
Paul
I should add that the couple of ocasions i have actually seen this fault it was on the DW8 engine (which is not all that different to the XUD9) The DW8 definitely has dowels on the pump bracket but dont know for sure if the XUD9 pump bracket has them as its been quite a long time since i've removed one.
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the_weaver
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Wheeler - thanks for that info.
Here's what I found today, reposted from the Citroen forum:-
I had a go at checking the runout of the diesel injector pump sprocket today. I used a plunge type dial gauge, with a ball bearing in the end, and I angled it at 45 degrees onto the outer edge of the sprocket (cambelt still fitted). The runout was 0.6 mm. As it seemed quite a lot, I decided to investigate further.
I watched the dial gauge, as I turned the engine over, using the front road wheel. It seems that the runout is linked to the operation of the pump. As the pump sprocket turns, the runout increases gradually to 0.6 mm, and then it jumps back to nothing suddenly. It does this four times, for every rotation of the pump sprocket. This must be the pump pumping up the pressure in each injector pipe, in turn. I can hear a release of pressure from somewhere, at the same time as the dial gauge goes back to zero. As the pressure builds up, the sprocket seems to be pushed outwards more, towards the offside wing.
I think this is probably related to the fact that I could feel endfloat in the diesel pump sprocket, when the cambelt was off. I didn't measure it but it could have been 0.6 mm, or more. The sprocket was being pushed outwards by a spring, towards the offside wing, but I could push the sprocket in.
What I'd like to know is whether this is normal. Maybe it is. On the other hand, I might have a worn bearing in the pump which is creating the endfloat, and allowing the sprocket to move in and out.
I don't know if the problem with the cambelt moving slightly on and off, right at the edge of the pump sprocket, is related to this at all. I think the cambelt might be following the pump sprocket, as it's too tight to slide along the sprocket. So when the pump sprocket moves, the cambelt moves. I think the cambelt weaving might be due to something else though, but I suppose it could be related to this.
Paul
Here's what I found today, reposted from the Citroen forum:-
I had a go at checking the runout of the diesel injector pump sprocket today. I used a plunge type dial gauge, with a ball bearing in the end, and I angled it at 45 degrees onto the outer edge of the sprocket (cambelt still fitted). The runout was 0.6 mm. As it seemed quite a lot, I decided to investigate further.
I watched the dial gauge, as I turned the engine over, using the front road wheel. It seems that the runout is linked to the operation of the pump. As the pump sprocket turns, the runout increases gradually to 0.6 mm, and then it jumps back to nothing suddenly. It does this four times, for every rotation of the pump sprocket. This must be the pump pumping up the pressure in each injector pipe, in turn. I can hear a release of pressure from somewhere, at the same time as the dial gauge goes back to zero. As the pressure builds up, the sprocket seems to be pushed outwards more, towards the offside wing.
I think this is probably related to the fact that I could feel endfloat in the diesel pump sprocket, when the cambelt was off. I didn't measure it but it could have been 0.6 mm, or more. The sprocket was being pushed outwards by a spring, towards the offside wing, but I could push the sprocket in.
What I'd like to know is whether this is normal. Maybe it is. On the other hand, I might have a worn bearing in the pump which is creating the endfloat, and allowing the sprocket to move in and out.
I don't know if the problem with the cambelt moving slightly on and off, right at the edge of the pump sprocket, is related to this at all. I think the cambelt might be following the pump sprocket, as it's too tight to slide along the sprocket. So when the pump sprocket moves, the cambelt moves. I think the cambelt weaving might be due to something else though, but I suppose it could be related to this.
Paul