Auto gearbox AL4 symptoms - meaning?

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Auto gearbox AL4 symptoms - meaning?

Post by John Plum »

Fault: Xantia Auto gearbox

Symptoms:
---------

Geaarbox flashing lites - limp mode - come on when accelerating up long motorway hill at speed 55mph, but at 70 mph, not, nor around town.


engine management light came on two occasions, soon after start up, then went off.


Comment
-------
I suspect the oil needs changing, and is possibly low. I've done only a 100 miles since the symptoms began, one month ago. No earlier similar symptoms in previous 2, 000 miles.

I believe the level is very important to get right.


Transmission/Vehicle Details:
-----------------------------

driving on pure veg oil since January 2010.

Mileage 105 000 miles

Gearbox serial number 20 TP15 0136793
GEARBOX (CHARACTERISTICS) AL4 (HP16)
TRANSMISSION BVA AL4
ENGINE TURBO DIESEL XUD9TE
Last edited by John Plum on 28 Jul 2010, 18:32, edited 4 times in total.
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Tips

Post by John Plum »

Advice on the symptoms, to serve me ahead at this stage, from people more experienced than me (everybody) woud be welcome. 8-)
Last edited by John Plum on 18 Jul 2010, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by xantia_v6 »

A lexia session should improve the accuracy of your diagnosis.

My guesses would be either an over-temperature fault, or a slippling clutch: the ECU compares the input and output rotation of the transmission, and throws a fault if the ratio is wrong for the selected gear.
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faults

Post by John Plum »

an over-temperature fault, or a slippling clutch: the ECU compares...
Good thinking xantia_6: input appreciated. I must get that lexia diagnosis then, first off.



I am driving on pure veg oil by the way, and have been since January.
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Lexia Report pressure regulation, and Q: - Old Oil?

Post by John Plum »

Got some more information to help in this fault finding.

Lexia Reported Fault: - 'main pressure regulation'.

The fault cleared on reset whilst running and restarting the engine. An immediate test drive , and everything was fine. The fault reported did not re-occur on a subsequent reading taken after that road test. BUT,

Driving again twenty minutes later, the symptoms returned.


Symptoms as they are now:
--------------------------------
Occurring more often than before (300 miles further down the road), on almost any appreciable long incline plus increased pressure on pedal: Effect - Flashing snow/sport lights, and immediate switch to third (sudden surge in revs, overall higher revs at given engine speed):


From publication 'AL4 AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION © AUTOMOBILES CITROEN'
- states for such a fault the effected 'downgraded mode' should be: a Switch to 3rd hydraulic the next time the ignition is switched on : 'differed stopping mode'

That doesn't seem to be the downgraded mode I'm getting.

I'm wondering, does this sound like an 'old oil' symptom?
I haven't yet attempted to check the oil level or top up. ( I shall shortly now)


Some Lexia Inputs: ( gearbox)
------------------

RPM: 992
Line Pressure 02.40 bar
U pressure 01,39 V.
OIl Temp: 068
U temp sensor 1.62




RECAP ON NOISES AND LEAKS:
-------------------------------------
The noise I detected is not a gearbox noise...it's from the drive belt bearing ...again! - sorry I gave you misleading information above.. it was raining, I was confused...:oops: .. Or paranoid 8-[

The slight evidence of a leak isn't gearbox oil, it's green blood collected on the gearbox from seepage out of the endbolt on the Hydraulic pressure regulator above.



Any comments here would be much appreciated, being as I'm new to citroen autboxes. Next, I intend to top up the oil, and then replace, assuming serious fault with the box can be rulled out for now.
:)
Last edited by John Plum on 26 Jul 2010, 02:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Hi John, did you change the gearbox oil already in your ownership? I recall a while ago it was your intention. I believe the gearbox oil level is indeed critical, do you know how to check it for correctnes?

It's quite easy on the al4's. The large drain plug has a 19mm level check plug built in. With the gearbox oil hot (casing hot to touch) on flat ground engine running,

Add 500 ml of oil, cycle through all gears, then leave in park. Unscrew the level check plug, level is correct when a stream of oil turns to a series of drips.

On a drain and refil, ggearbkx should take about 4 litters of oil.
If you have not done a full change I'd do one now
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gearbox oil change

Post by John Plum »

Hi Sid:
did you change the gearbox oil already in your ownership? I recall a while ago it was your intention.
Yes it was... as per your advice. I didn't change the gearbox oil straight away, no. I thought I'd test drive plus a bit more, get to know the car by driving a bit, over a couple of thousand - I needed to drive, then see about the gearbox oil. I was doing so much mechnical work and takeover jobs to begin with you see, and winter arrived, I moved home.

I beleive you're right, it may be critical, yes, and it should be changed.

I'm calling on the GSF shop today. I may just top up/ check the level first, to observe the effect, before a drain.

I re-read the instructions carefully and think I understand well. You mean start up while in park, don't you?
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Post by hirsty »

GSF don't sell the Esso LT71131 that is the only oil you should use. Available only from Citroen Dealers and about £24 for 2 litres. Don't believe the AL4 thats indicated on the GSF website, it is not the right oil.

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Operation of this box

Post by John Plum »

I should say, that Paul, in Anglesey, who kindly did the lexia readings, found that the box was quiet, smooth and powerful to drive. I'd agree it seems to operate nicely other than this.

I'm not sure, but I suspect that an 'old oil' warning is never reported at all ( by design), in the lexia programme, although a reading is computed and when the ceiling is tripped, would produce a flashlights/limp gearbox 'downgrade' as the Citroen people call it.
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Post by John Plum »

@ Hirsty:
GSF don't sell the Esso LT71131
Oh. Thanks for that then... good information right at my fingertips. I won't touch theirs then.
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Post by myglaren »

There is also this:
Sid_the_Squid wrote:Hi all,
Today managed to get a bit of free time to give the GG her regular service, decided to be prudent and change the gearbox oil as well as I'm at the 129k miles mark! Now usually I get the Esso LT 71141 from citroen hatfield who seem to be quite on the ball at getting the right parts from part numbers, however today I went to my local (from home) citroen Hemel. Aweful bunch of rejects working in the parts dept, tried to sell me Castrol Dexron stuff twice saying it was the only thing appearing on the computer, only after finally showing them a picture of a bottle of Esso LT 71141 did they managed to find some, which clearly showed the part number on the bottle!
When confronted with the actual bottle proudly displaying the part number I had origionally given them, the part number which seems to work fine at hatfield, I was told oh its superseeded mate, thats why could not find it.

Its worse still Citroen Hemel have also told a neighbour of mine (the one with the sliver Xantia) that his LX is a Hydractive model! I had a look today its very clearly not.

No such trouble getting all the other sundries at eurocar parts though, did you guys know euro car parts web prices are more expensive than their in store ones? I was geared up to spend £71 there, based on a list form the internet, but all parts came to £63, guy at the counter told me its a common thing for their store and web prices not to match..

Anyone else had undue trouble getting Esso LT 71141 from Citroen dealers recently?
And:
addo wrote:LT71141 has been (or is being) superseded by Esso (not PSA) apparently, but that's no reason to use DII instead!

I barely need the main dealers for anything. I registered ownership just in case of a recall or other issue, but to them I'm an inconvenience - owners with mechanical skills/experience are difficult to brush aside...
From this thread

Also, it appears that it may have been rebranded:
Iridium Engineering
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Awful bunch of rejects working in the parts dept

Post by John Plum »

Thanks for that last one MyGlaren and Sid The Squid. I'm Headlining it:


Awful Bunch of Citroen Rejects Working in the Parts Dept
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Interesting stuff Steve, prehapse thats what the parts dept monkey ment when he kept trying to push the castrol dex 3 at me yesterday.

John, heres is a link to a AL4 PDF, kindly hosted by Jim, hopefully a bit clearer http://www.eastment.net/forum/al4%20oil%20change.pdf

Section 4 of the PDF covers the level checking procedure
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Post by CitroJim »

myglaren wrote: Also, it appears that it may have been rebranded:
Iridium Engineering
Ahh :D Rebranded rather than superceeded...

I'd not trust that purple stuff Iridium say is a replacement for it. I obsrve thy don't appear to give the technical spec. of it. I'll expect it's just a DEX III clone and therefore not suitable...

John, you say the oil has been changed. Are you SURE it is LT71141 they used and not DEX?

I worry that the wrong stuff may be in there. Take a sample and see what colour it is and smell it. If it's reddish, then that's what they've done. LT71141 looks like engine oil and smells like cat's pee. DEX has neither characteristic. It is dark red in colour.

Whilst you're there, smell the oil for a burning, toasty aroma and look at it critically, it should still be quite a nice amber colour.

Yiou can drop a litrtle sample by warming the box right up and undoing the level plug a few turns. Enough will come out to test it.

The pressure fault does indeed suggest the wrong oil. DEX is a LOT thinner and weaker than LT. LT has a lot of body and stickiness about it.
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Fault Suggestion

Post by John Plum »

Hello CitroJim.
John, you say the oil has been changed. Are you SURE it is LT71141 they used and not DEX?
I haven't changed it. I am about to tackle that. I've noted your inspection points, which are going to be useful.
The pressure fault does indeed suggest the wrong oil. DEX is a LOT thinner and weaker than LT.


Thanks for the confirmation of this fault's suggestion. :wink:
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