Play in crankshaft sprocket

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 09 Jul 2010, 13:14

Hi folks

My car is a Citroen ZX 1.9D 1993 with 217K on the clock.

My crankshaft sprocket (the one that drives the cambelt) has got some play in. I measured the movement (with a digital caliper) at the outside edge of the sprocket and it's 0.8mm. Checking with a ruler confirms it looks less than 1mm. The play is present when the crankshaft pulley and pulley bolt are removed. I assume the pulley bolt holds it tight normally so there won't be any play once the bolt is tightened.

Is this a problem? How much are crankshaft sprockets from the main dealers? I think this may have happened about 12 years ago. I had a crankshaft pulley bolt come loose after a mechanic had worked on the car and it was loose for a month or two while I was wondering what was making the noise. I tightened it up (with Loctite) and it was ok afterwards. I can't remember whether it happened on this car or on a previous car I had. The crankshaft pulley has also got play in it which might point to it being this car that had the loose pulley bolt.

How do you remove the crankshaft sprocket? I've removed the pulley and the Woodruff Key but I can't seem to get the sprocket off by hand. Is it supposed to just slide off? What sort of puller would I need?

I'm wondering whether to just put up with it. I think the car has probably been like this for years and running ok.

On a slightly different matter, I've just checked the idler and tensioner rollers for the cambelt. The bearings don't feel rough at all but there is some play in both rollers. Not a huge amount but enough so that you can just feel a knock with your hand as you rock it. These rollers are the originals (17 years old with 217 K on them). I'm wondering whether I should change these or not. The cambelt which came off the car looked ok. The idler roller looks easy to change but the tensioner roller is a big problem because of that spring. Is it possible to change the tensioner on my own with the engine in the car? What can I use to hold the spring in? Does the "make a plate to hold the spring in" method in the Haynes manual work?

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 09 Jul 2010, 15:11

The crankshaft sprocket is only 18 quid from the main dealers so I've decided to order a new one.

Paul

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 09 Jul 2010, 16:10

Hi Paul, if your wallet can stand it, I'd strongly recommend you replace everything, especially the tensioners, idlers, water pump, cambelt, aux belt and crank bolt. If the woodruff key has been hammered so it's sloppy fit, get a new one of those also.

I admit, I'm paranoid about these things failing, having had to repair a few but it's so easy to overlook a failing part, even the pro's get fooled.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 09 Jul 2010, 19:54

Hi Mike

I've fitted a new water pump, cambelt and I've got a new crankbolt ready to use. The crank sprocket and new Woodruff Keys are coming in the post. I don't think there's an aux belt on my car but I have got a new fanbelt ready to fit.

My wallet can stand the cost of the the idler and tensioner rollers but it's the difficulty in fitting them that's putting me off. My car is on axle stands with no cambelt at the moment so I'll be doing the work myself (following a bad experience with my local garage). I'm just wondering whether the tensioner spring is going to defeat me or not. Apparently there's a Citroen tool for holding the plunger in. Has anybody tried this tool or made their own version? Does the plunger and spring come out when you remove the tensioner and then you use the tool to put it back in?

I managed to get the crankshaft sprocket off eventually. There are two Woodruff Keys both of which have got some wear on them. Are the Woodruff Keys made from softer material than the sprockets so that they wear first? There seems to be grease or oil on the sprocket keyways and Woodruff keys, possibly copper grease. Should I use oil or copper grease when refitting?

Paul

Old-Guy · Post by **Old-Guy** » 09 Jul 2010, 20:29

Paul,

If you have a look at Things You Won’t Find In the BoL on my web pages you'll find both the way that I did it and an untried alternative that looks as though it ought to be easier.

BTW: The Auxiliary belt is what you refer to as the fan belt. To be pedantic, this belt doesn't drive any fans!

No lubricant nor Locktite on the Woodruff keys, but do put thread lock on the pulley bolt threads and on both faces of its washer. Otherwise it's not uncommon for the pulley bolt to work loose. Obviously it needs to be tightened as specified.

I agree with Mike; always replace the tensioners if in any doubt.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 09 Jul 2010, 21:18

Thanks for the info Old-Guy. Very interesting website. Do all your methods work with the engine in the car, as some of the pictures show the engine out of the car?

I still use the term "fan belt" to describe the simple arrangement where there's just a crank pulley driving an alternator. I like to think of "aux belt" as the more complicated arrangement where the belt drives aircon and power steering as well. I suppose they're all officially called "aux belts". I think my alternator might have a fan on it, to cool the windings, so maybe it's an "alternator fan belt".

Paul

spider · Post by **spider** » 09 Jul 2010, 21:26

I made a tool to hold the plunger as I had to de-seize! mine, so needed something to stop it coming apart while I attempted to fix it off the car.

If you attempt to take that tensioner assembly off the plunger will come out you do NOT want that to happen. The spring is very strong too. A replacement is part of the mounting and very expensive if I remember correctly about £130

The tool sits under the plunger bolted into the mount so it cannot come out.

There is a tool available but you can make something if needs be. The plunger / spring is very strong, so you need something half decent (I used very thick angle iron with two bolts in it) , I'll get a pic if needs be tomorrow.

I think the BOL has a diagram for making one but I was lucky in that with it seized I could half make it in situ...

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 09 Jul 2010, 21:46

Andy

A picture or diagram and some measurements of the tool you made would be very useful. The problem as you say is making the tool without being able to get access to the plunger/spring/mount mechanism. The Haynes manual has a photo of a tool they made but no diagram or measurements or even the thickness of the steel they used. It's a bent piece of metal with two M10 bolts (instead of dowels) and two nuts. They should have least have told you how far apart the bolts are.

The Haynes manual mentions Citroen tool number 7009-T1
Is this the tool you're referring to or is there some other tool made by a third party such as Sykes-Pickavant etc? I can't find any info about the Citroen tool on service.citroen. Does anybody know if it's available to buy and how much it is?

Paul

addo · Post by **addo** » 09 Jul 2010, 23:28

Contrasting opinion on fits here.

With things like the keys and sprockets, I absolutely use a film coating of grease. Preferably Wurth CU800 or waterproof grease for outboards/dirt bikes. Excess will be scraped off as the parts fit together, but the residual will offer protection against parts corroding into one another.

As you asked about metal keys being softer - they are generally made to shear before a more substantial part is damaged...

spider · Post by **spider** » 10 Jul 2010, 12:50

Sorry for the delay, my camera has decided not to work

I've just used my (poor quality) phone camera to take a few pictures.

I re-read Old-Guy's useful links (excellent) , just to clarify its not the end of the world if it does come out, but if you can retain it it is a lot better.

My tool has elongated bolt holes as I had to 'guess' and it does not screw in, but the pressure of the plunger prevents it falling out as the 'load' sits on the bolts.

You must bear in mind, I made this on a Sunday afternoon as I was in a big hurry, had no working transport, had to make something out of some scraps I could find and its only a temporary tool:

I'm going to just link to pics as they are large :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0036.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0037.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0038.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0039.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0040.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0041.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0042.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0043.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ ... o-0044.jpg

The angle iron is approx 3mm thick, if that's not clear.

BX · Post by BX » 10 Jul 2010, 16:55

Warning: Some of the later 1.9d and td engines, I cannot remember exactly which, ( could be dw8 or a9a or others) are designed to have play in the crankshaft timing belt sprocket. This is to allow for exact timing when replacing the timing (cam ) belt. The camshaft, crankshaft and injection pump are locked. The belt is fitted. All slack is to be taken up by the tensioner (give it a hand if need be). Then the crankshaft pully is replaced locking the crankshaft sprocket in place.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 Jul 2010, 19:45

Andy - thanks for those photos. Just what I needed. I'm in the same situation as you with regards to transport - once I start work on the car I've got no transport to go and get stuff. I'll have to hunt around the shed to see if I've got any steel. Elongated bolt holes are a good idea. The Haynes manual tool looks similar to yours. They say you can slide the tool in between the plunger and the tensioner if you set the tensioner adjuster nut to half way along the slot. Do you think this is possible or is the spring too strong?

BX - interesting info there on the play being designed-in. Mine's a 1993 XUD engine. I will find out whether the amount of play is correct or not when I get the new sprocket and Woodruff Keys. I think I've probably got some designed-in play and some play due to wear.

Paul

spider · Post by **spider** » 10 Jul 2010, 19:53

Should be possible to slide it in place.

Remember all its doing is stopping the plunger falling out (down) , so you just need to get it between the tensioner and the plunger (might take a bit of a wiggle or something to persuade it in as the plunger will be sat on the tensioner due to spring pressure)

I should point out mine does not screw into place, the bolts sit in holes in the mounting although not 100% ideal its large enough to hold it in place, ideally the tool should be wider (as mine only covers about 75% of the plunger itself) but it did work when I needed something in a hurry as I say. If you were local you could borrow it.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 Jul 2010, 20:04

There's lot of play in my crankshaft pulley. That's what first made me suspicious about the play in the crankshaft sprocket. I can see the wear in the pulley keyway and Woodruff Key. Luckily wear in the pulley is not that critical to anything so I'll put up with it.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 Jul 2010, 20:34

Andy - the tool in the Haynes manual doesn't screw into place, same as yours. It just slides into the holes. They use M10 bolts as a substitute for dowels. I reckon I should be able to make one ok without needing to borrow yours but thanks for the offer. I've got some old angle brackets somewhere, for mounting a central heating radiator on a wall. They could be ideal for the job. I'll order the idler and tensioner on Monday. I'll fit the idler first and if it's easy enough I'll then go on to the tensioner.

Paul