My 2.0 HDi C5 wouldn't start!

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Paul-R
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My 2.0 HDi C5 wouldn't start!

Post by Paul-R »

We were out last Saturday in the C5. Took a run of about 45 miles. Stopped & parked for about 3 hours. Started, drove another 30 miles, stopped and when I tried to restart after only 40 minutes or so the engine just span over without catching.

After many tries called the RAC. When they came out he did a few preliminary checks and put his laptop to read the ECU.

The reader showed errors P0401, P1138, P0100 and P0190. One of those is the EGR valve, which I have suspected to be iffy for a while but wouldn't have stopped the car starting, only made it a bit rough running, he said. One or two of the others might have been caused when he tested the engine by spinning it over with the connector taken off the sensor underneath the common rail (the high pressure sender I think) and a burst of Easy Start to prove compression was there.

P1138 is fuel pressure regulation fault and so the analysis was that that there was a fuel problem. He cleared the codes and then we tried again to start. He set the reader to check the fuel pressure and it was about 380bar when turning over

While doing this it managed to cough its way into life and I caressed the pedal to get it going. Even when revving the engine the maximum reading was 505 bar. I stopped the engine and it restarted and I took it for a run round the block. It felt much the same as it normally does.

He disconnected the reader and, without stopping the engine, I drove it home. I haven't started it up yet as I'm using the Xsara but it's got to be fixed.

I was under the impression that the lift pump in the fuel tank ran at a bar or three and the high pressure pump at around 1500 bar so what was this reading? Is it a very, very poor high pressure reading? I haven't put my own Lexia on it to measure the fuel pressure but when I do I'll also measure the Xsara for comparison.

If it's the lift pump, is the pump the same across the ranges? I have my spare 2002 HPi to cannibalise if need be.

The C5, and to a lesser extent the Xsara, have never been instant starters like the Montego used to be and I put that down to the difference between common rail and the old rotary pump. The Montego would start with half a turn of the engine.

What a weekend! There was a point on Saturday evening, Sunday morning when we had no working vehicles. The Xsara fractured its exhaust the previous Thursday and that HAD to be repaired first. I know I should have put the Lexia on by now but I've been very busy, honest!
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Post by RichardW »

IIRC you need a minimum of 120 bar for it to fire the injections. Pressure at idle should be 297 bar, and 1350 bar at maximum revs. The LP pump has to be the first port of call - can you hear it priming at switch on - if the car won't start, does it do so if you belt the bottom of the fuel tank whilst cranking it? There is a possibility that you have a cracked injector that is leaking fuel off the rail - this might have been shown up at the weekend if it was hot - you can check the leak off rates of the injectors to determine if this is the case. My money would be on the LP pump. No idea if it's the same as the petrol one, but I doubt it.
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Paul-R
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Post by Paul-R »

Spent some four hours this evening playing with the Lexia on the Xsara and C5. The C5 was a bit reluctant to start and I had to spin the engine over until it eventually caught. This is something I last remember on petrol engines, I've never experienced it on a diesel.

The fuel pressure on both cars was 298 at tickover. I discovered (probably everyone else knew this) that if you press F6 then a help screen showing permitted readings comes up. This says that the range is 290 - 310 so it's bang in the middle. When I revved the engines of both cars to 3,000 both were around 500 - 550 so, even though that's nowwhere near 1350, it seems OK.

Similarly the injector correction values are all well within the 5.0 to -5.0 allowed so there doesn't appear to be a leakoff problem.

I can hear the lift pump whing so that appears to be working. I suppose I'll have to take it out to check for crud but surely this would give a problem under load when more fuel is required, not at tickover?

I'm going to take a chance and drive it to work tomorrow.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

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Post by wheeler »

Paul-R wrote: Similarly the injector correction values are all well within the 5.0 to -5.0 allowed so there doesn't appear to be a leakoff problem.
Don't rule out a leakoff problem yet, Lexia wont show a leakoff problem as thats the mechanical side of the injector that causes this. To test the injector leakoffs properly you need to connect bottles to each of the injector returns. Another telltale sign of a leakoff problem is lack of high pressure reading on cranking (assuming that the low pressure pump is working as it should), the leaky injector stops pressure building up in the rail & as already said you need a munimum of 120 bar before it will even think about starting. 300ish bar at idle sounds normal & the 1350 bar is the maximum operating pressure, i dont imagine you would get anywhere near that unless you were really thrashing it.
I dont think the petrol fuel pumps have return lines on them so i cant imagine they would be compatible, especially not the HPi.
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Post by citroenxm »

Paul-R wrote: This is something I last remember on petrol engines, I've never experienced it on a diesel.
That because with ALL the elctrionic wizzadry on DERV engines now, they are now setup in exactly the same way as a Petrol injection!!

ECU's, sensors, wires, electronics... they are not like the orginal "All mechnical" roarty pump systems on older cars...

Shame, but what it has enabled though, is a tune up to boost performance does not affect the overall MPG on a DERV due to the much higher pressures they run at over petrol engines... At the end of the day a DERV can still do more MPG then a petrol..

What part of Wirral are you on? I goto New Brighton a lot...

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Paul-R
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Post by Paul-R »

citroenxm wrote:
Paul-R wrote: This is something I last remember on petrol engines, I've never experienced it on a diesel.
That because with ALL the elctrionic wizzadry on DERV engines now, they are now setup in exactly the same way as a Petrol injection!!
No, it goes back way further than that.

What I was trying to convey was the way that a petrol engine when, for instance, the plugs are dirty or the points (told you it was way back) don't have a big enough gap, and you have to spin the engine over and then it gradually fires into life. You then have to caress the throttle pedal to keep it going.

I really can't explain it better than that.

However!

Yesterday and today I decided to take the car to work (6 mile drive to Moreton) and it started first time all three times so far. I'm going to take it progressively further distances and then, in two weeks time, take it for a big run up to Glasgow.

I'm still hoping to take the fuel pump out at the weekend sometime on a crud hunt.
citroenxm wrote:What part of Wirral are you on? I goto New Brighton a lot...
Pensby. If you know how to drive my Lexia I'd love to swap stories with you.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
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Post by Sl4yer »

Sounds like a good, old fashioned air leak! I presume this is still possible on the HDi engines?

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Paul-R
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Post by Paul-R »

Just keeping the post up to date.
Sl4yer wrote:Sounds like a good, old fashioned air leak! I presume this is still possible on the HDi engines?

James
I don't really think it is. On the old XUD engines there was no lift pump and the fuel flow relied on the HP pump being able to suck hard enough! This was why there was the the hand priming bulb. With a lift pump in the fuel tank there would have to be air ingress inside the tank between the top of the fuel and the pump itself if the pump is above the level of the fuel.

Anyway, I decided that I would change the fuel filter, as it has been a while since that was last done, and then go on to look at the fuel pump. When I took the filter out there was a little sediment in the bottom of the bowl and the tiniest amount of golden bits. Now I've read about the perils of LP fuel collapse I really wanted to look at the pump and fortunately that was next on my list.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to take the pump out as it seems that the pump is below the level of the fuel even when the tank is just under half full. When I took the the two hoses off the pump one of the pump spigots started to drip fuel out and so I wasn't able to go any further and put everything back until the tank is a bit emptier.

I took the fuel filter housing off and rigorously cleaned it before refitting. I turned the ignition on and off a few times to prime it and then tried to to start it. It started without a problem. I'll drive it a few more times next week but I don't think I'll have a chance to look at the pump again before I take the car up to Glasgow next weekend.

That'll be a real test for the car!
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
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Paul-R
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2013 2.0 HDi 163 C5 Exclusive Tourer
2003 2.0 HDi 110 C5 Exclusive Estate (Gone)
2001 2.0 HDi 90 Xsara Estate (Gone)
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Post by Paul-R »

Further thought about the fuel dripping from the tank unit spigit. Could the fuel tank be slightly pressurised?

I'd always thought that the slight 'pffft' noise when the filler cap is removed was a vacuum being released but could the system somehow be pressurising the tank?
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
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