c5 2.2HDI exclusive are they all bad? What to look for

fishdude · Post by **fishdude** » 29 Jun 2010, 21:58

I accidentally took a test drive in a C5 2.2 auto Exclusive to rule it out, but fell in love.
I wont be buying that one as it is too much, has 4 owners on a 02 plate. and has the engine service and pollution warning on,
My head says buy a Volvo but my heart still says buy a C5.
I am scared stiff of getting numerous undiagnosable pollution and limp home warnings,
Ive seen numerous posts about the cars going into limp mode at scarey moments, then going back to Citroen on many occasions with no resolution. Granted if 10 people were unhappy we'd all hear about it and 200,000 people were all happy only a few would say so.
I am looking for about 100K model with 1 or 2 owners.
What should I look for to avoid a lemon?
I normally service cars myself, (just oil filters etc.).
Should I buy an analyser, and risk it or get the Volvo.

Thanks

Fish

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 29 Jun 2010, 22:40

Hi, Welcome to the FCF

Im pleased you liked the C5 you drove, they are very underated. If they are given a chance people will find that they are very good cars.

However, i only buy 2.0HDis as i dont like what ive heard about the 2.2, so my advice would be, if you want something which has less chance of going wrong, avoid the 2.2HDis.

Ive not driven a 2.2, i might give one a drive sometime actually, just to see what the difference is. Yes performance will be better and torque, but MPG is often not as good as the figures suggest - so ive heard.

At some point i think every 2.2 with have the very common anti pollution problem, as this is to do with the FAP filter. This has been refined on the later 16v 1.6 and 2.0 138bhp engines but it was still in early phases in the 2.2 and is th eone which does suffer the problems. Often this light does just mean a top up of the eoyls fluid and often a filter clean/renew.

My suggestion would be, unless you really require the 2.2 get a 2.0HDi 110 and get it remapped. This will see it with more power than a 2.2, more economy and hopefully better reliability - ive certainly had no problems with any with mileages ranging from 60-120K.

I wouldnt mind a 2.2 if they were more reliable. As they are available in higher spec and have the H3+ suspension. The 2.0HDi has a high enough spec in SX, VTR or Exclusive trim, dual zone climate control, auto lights/wipers etc.

Cars are getting more complex, there is no way around that. I find it very hard to find another car to beat a C5 at pretty much everything it does. Comparing value for money, engine and spec range, availability, build quality, etc etc its a pretty good car when compared to other things. I looked at just about every other large car before i bought my 2.0 VTR, but nothing impressed me as much, they either had very poor reliability problems, poor quality body (rust on Mondeos) or were just not good value. So i came back to C5s. We have had 4 and have not had any major problems, just niggles. Though all were/are 2.0s.

2.2s are not all bad, i know a few people with them (automatics) who love them and have one after another. As i say, id like to try one, as this engine was very much the most talked abot engine when the C5 was launched.

Any other C5 questions you have?

Out of interest, which Volvo are you considering?

fishdude · Post by **fishdude** » 29 Jun 2010, 23:10

Thanks for the prompt and comprehensive reply. I was looking at autos and the Vovlo was the s60 d5

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 29 Jun 2010, 23:14

You can get 2.0HDi automatics, though a 2.2 is very popular with the auto box.

The S60 is a nice car.

Sl4yer · Post by **Sl4yer** » 29 Jun 2010, 23:25

I'd be wary of cars with warnings when you buy them. Someone came to see me with a C5 displaying various problems. I was able to clear many of the problems with the Lexia, but the engine ECU was locked because it had already been cleared 50 times! Suggests the problems weren't new...

I'd be wary to be honest.

James

KP · Post by KP » 30 Jun 2010, 08:34

The filter shouldn't clog so easily if you stick to booting the car for a good distance say once a week to get the systemup to burning temprature as a lot tend to be pootled around and then the heat doesn't rise enough for the FAP to clean off properly.

also the 2.2 when chipped is usually around 170+ ponies and a good wallop more torque so if you want to tow its worthwhile. Get a good indy to look at one your about to buy or someone with a lexia is just as good

As someone who has driven a chipped 2.2 exclusive se i can say they certainly shift and mpg wasn't too bad, even with my heavey left foot in my younger years i can recall seeing over 35mpg out of it which wasn't bad for me back then

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 30 Jun 2010, 09:25

Put in simple words an early C5 with 100K on the clock is end of life.

Now I know that there are some (many):-) who will contest that statement but in my experience that is close to the truth.

Does that make it something to be avoided? No! but accept that from this point on it will start costing relatively big money to fix many of the problems that will occur particularly if you are dependant on garages.

My qualifications for saying this ? I purchased in 2009 a 2002 01 plate 2.2 Exclusive with 90K on the clock. There was quite a lot of service documentation which traced the cars history from new. There were and still are problems with the car which I am still trying to resolve, most of my problems are not unique and have been reported by others however in many cases explanations / solutions have not as yet been forthcoming.

General Take on Problems That will Occur at around 100K.

1. Much of the rubber bits in the suspension and there is a lot of it will be well shagged (not to put to fine a point on it.

2 Disks will if they havn't been changed be down to min thickness.
3. Rear radius bearings could well be on their way out.
4. Belts will need changing.
5 If manual gearboxes chances are the Dual Mass Flywheel will be close to failure same for the Dual Mass Pulley on the other end.
6 High chance that some of the switches around the steering column are fatigued to point of failure Computer Reset classic case in point.
7. On 2.2 FAP will be past it sell by date if not already changed.
8 Cabin Internals trim etc can get worn quite quickly i.e soft rubber feel paint applied to various plastic bits wearing away.
8 Aircond likely to be low on gas, compressor front seal could be suspect and close to end of life.

Now the good bits Bodywork is solid and generally rust free.
Engines and transmissions are basically good for another 100K most engine problems on diesels at least are likely to be relatively minor problems with leaking vacuum system.
Electrics are reasonably solid and if all the electric bit work when you buy it will likely continue to work.
Having said that the design of the electrics on Mk2 C5 is much better than Mk1

Maintenance IMHO a Lexia is not an option for maintenance on these cars it is an essential, if you are going to do your own maintenance on these cars factor the cost of one into the acquisition cost if you arn't going to do your own maintenance make sure that your chosen garage has one (and knows how to use it properly!)

In my view if purchasing a car at this mileage one was to completely overhaul all suspension and braking items and do it in one hit and the same for clutch, belts etc. then one would have a car which would do another 100K with few problems. Doing these things in one hit should be much cheaper than doing them bit by bit.

Having said all that is a Volvo or a Mercedes a better bet because they are better? built emphatically no! ALL modern series production cars are built with a design life of around four years / 100K miles and will start to have similar issues depending on design etc.

cachaciero

den169 · Post by **den169** » 30 Jun 2010, 09:46

cachaciero wrote. Put in simple words an early C5 with 100K on the clock is end of life.

Utter rubbish 100k is nothing for any decent car nowadays.I have a 2003 c5 sx estate had it 5 years iv'e spent no more than £100 on parts,Other than tyres pads oil etc.It has 130k plus on it still drives like new and was in mint condition untill the wife scraped the side during the winter.

wright · Post by **wright** » 30 Jun 2010, 10:00

sorry i dissagree, i have a 2 litre hdi c5 with 150k on it, i have done the timing belt and will need front disks and pads soon,
but these are service items really and need to be done on almost any car,
to go and replace a clutch and flywheel, suspension and brakes because they might be worn dosen't make sense,
the cost of changing these item would be the same as buying the car,
a friend of mine has sold a lot of c5's to taxi drivers and ive seen them coming back with 300k on them and just getting serviced and a few suspension bits, nothing like the amount of bits a passat would go through.
if you buy the right car you won't need to replace every concievable part that might be worn, with 100k on a car its not new but shouldn't be that bad.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 30 Jun 2010, 10:06

Citroenmad wrote:Hi, Welcome to the FCF

At some point i think every 2.2 with have the very common anti pollution problem, as this is to do with the FAP filter. This has been refined on the later 16v 1.6 and 2.0 138bhp engines but it was still in early phases in the 2.2 and is th eone which does suffer the problems. Often this light does just mean a top up of the eoyls fluid and often a filter clean/renew.

With respect I do wish after all that has been written on this subject that people would stop saying the anti pollution fault is to do with the FAP filter 99% of the time it isn't.
I dread to think just how much money has been conned out of owners by unnecessarily changing the FAP. There are only two failures of the FAP system which will cause the Injection ECU to post The "Anti Pollution" message. One is not having a FAP filter fitted when there should be one and the other is a totally blocked filter a condition unlikely to be reached on a 2.2 until about 60K assuming that it has had proper servicing during the warrenty period and none after.

Yes the 2.2 does have a bad press for "Anti Pollution" fault this message covers every and any failure within the engine management system of which there are far more than just FAP.
Based upon my own experience and much reading of the problems of others by far away the most frequent cause of the "Anti Pollution" warning on the 2.2 (usually followed by LIMP mode) is Turbo Overboost, this is caused by failure of the vacuum supply to the turbo control, usually a split in one of the many small pipe joiners in the system or the real Achilles heel the Swirl diaphragm.

My suggestion would be, unless you really require the 2.2 get a 2.0HDi 110 and get it remapped. This will see it with more power than a 2.2, more economy and hopefully better reliability - ive certainly had no problems with any with mileages ranging from 60-120K.

I would agree with that at least as regards economy.

I wouldnt mind a 2.2 if they were more reliable. As they are available in higher spec and have the H3+ suspension. The 2.0HDi has a high enough spec in SX, VTR or Exclusive trim, dual zone climate control, auto lights/wipers etc.

My experience of the 2.2 is that apart from vacuum problems easily resolved it is as reliable as anything else although maintenance of the FAP and addition of Eolys does add to the overall cost.
In my experience H3+ is a problem I have and several others have reported that problems with H3+ of hard and harsh suspension so it's maybe not the bonus that it may otherwise appear to be.
Do like all the toys on the Exclusive SE I mean all this auto stuff you don't really need it but when it all works it is nice.

cachaciero

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 30 Jun 2010, 11:57

den169 wrote:
cachaciero wrote. Put in simple words an early C5 with 100K on the clock is end of life.
Utter rubbish 100k is nothing for any decent car nowadays.I have a 2003 c5 sx estate had it 5 years iv'e spent no more than £100 on parts,Other than tyres pads oil etc.It has 130k plus on it still drives like new and was in mint condition untill the wife scraped the side during the winter.

With respect as I said ALL modern series production cars have a design life of four / five years and circa 100K miles. That's a fact.

Now whether you can get more than a 100K out of the car without major expense is largely down to luck. We all know, have had experience probably of buying a car which on the face of it was good yet turns out to be a lemon often for more than one reason and equally buying another about which one has had reservations yet turns out to be a trouble free good buy.

So basically you have got a good one although I suspect that you purchased it with well less than a 100K on the clock and you have spent no more than a £100.00 on parts over and above consumables, I assume from that that you have done your own maintenance so the time to do what has been done has not been costed in and I also assume that you have not suffered some of the commonly reported problems with these cars though at 130K some of them will be waiting in the wings.

To balance out your experience I have spent well over £400.00 on parts in one year I still have not got to the bottom of some of the original problems and new ones keep biting me in the ass, if I factored in my time at a commercial rate then I would have spent more than the car originally cost me.

cachaciero

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 30 Jun 2010, 12:26

wright wrote:sorry i dissagree, i have a 2 litre hdi c5 with 150k on it, i have done the timing belt and will need front disks and pads soon,
but these are service items really and need to be done on almost any car,

Well you are already half way to your next timing belt

and at 150K based upon the thickness of my disks at 90K you should allready have changed the disks but then brake wear like clutch wear does depend very much on how the car is driven. Service items they may be but my point is that like many other items on the car they are designed to start need doing at about 100K and if you are getting a garage to do it it is a potential money pit.

to go and replace a clutch and flywheel, suspension and brakes because they might be worn dosen't make sense,

My point is that with the DMF when changing the clutch then if you are paying for the labour to do this it makes sense to do the DMF at the same time because there is a lot of anecdotal evidence which says that the DMF will likely fail before the next clutch change is due.
Further the latest Valeo solution of replacing the flywheel with a rigid flywheel with the clutch plate taking up the DMF function is a much better solution.

Equally suspension IF you are paying for the labour to for example replace the bottom swivel joint on the front suspension then to do the lower wishbone bushes at the same time makes sense as the amount of extra labour is minimal and believe me at 90K miles those bushes are worn and deformed a long way from the way they came out of the factory even though there may not be "play" as such in them.

Of course if you are DIY and not costing the time then it does change the economic picture.

the cost of changing these item would be the same as buying the car,

Agree completely as it stands the car has reached an economic end of life.
BUT look at it from a slightly different perspective buy a 2002/3/4 Exclusive SE for say £2000.00 with 150K on the clock car in top nick condition apart from miles now go and in one hit spend say another £5K on replacing / upgrading all the know weaknesses and wear items in one hit. Now you have a near new car which was worth what £25K when new? for £7K with if the work has been done properly the expectation of getting through the next 100K with minimal problems.

a friend of mine has sold a lot of c5's to taxi drivers and ive seen them coming back with 300k on them and just getting serviced and a few suspension bits, nothing like the amount of bits a passat would go through.
if you buy the right car you won't need to replace every concievable part that might be worn, with 100k on a car its not new but shouldn't be that bad.

I can't disgree with that statement as it stands, no at 100K miles you won't have to replace every concievable part but I bet by the time you have reached 200K you will have replaced a large number of them.

cachaciero

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 30 Jun 2010, 13:06

The thing that really puts me off the 2.2 HDi is the stories of injectors ceased in the head and that occasionally to only way to get the head off is to destroy it.

This seems to be an issue with several other direct injection diesels too.

A 2.0 110 HDi with a re-map is a very drivable car with plenty power for day to day running.

Lower tax bracket too due to emissions of 146g/km (I think)

Steve.

coastline taxis · Post by **coastline taxis** » 30 Jun 2010, 13:32

Got a few c5 one has 250k on it and the rest are 150ish and the maintenance on these cars is peanuts. They are good work hoarses. theres no springs to snap opr replace and droplinks and ball joints can be bought for under a tenner each. 4 in 1 clutch replacement £200. 100k on a c5 is nothing

KP · Post by KP » 30 Jun 2010, 14:14

The injectors stuck in the head affects all the HDi 16v units of which the 2,2 was really the first wave

also affects the 1.4 and 1.6hdi's as well i believe.