405 Rust

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 02 Jun 2010, 00:21

Whilst poking about under the car I saw this, at the rear of the sill:

Is this anything to worry about, and how would I fix it? There is something similar towards the front of the sill. Never welded in my life, where do I start?

Under the boot floor was also very rusty:

So I tapped all the rust off with a small hammer, treated it with Vactan rust converter then gave it 3 nice even coats of hammerite:

However, I'm a little late for the rear subframe. It's rusted through in various places and just crumbled away. Will this be a problem come MOT time?

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 02 Jun 2010, 07:44

any rust (not surface rust) within 30cm (in all direction) of seat belt and suspension mounttings, structure/box sections, door sill's and sub frames is a failiure,

can you show better picy's of the sub frame rust

regards malcolm

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 02 Jun 2010, 07:51

citronut wrote:can you show better picy's of the sub frame rust

Indeed, that'll help enormously. I expect you'll be off to a scrappy soon for a better subframe!!! Is is just the shock absorber plates that are looking a bit frilly?

The other rust will not be too hard to fix with a MIG. After your head and gearbox work, I'm sure you'll get MIG Welding mastered before Breakfast Ally

Unread post by **RichardW** » 02 Jun 2010, 08:18

IIRC Ally, you are not far from Glasgow....??? I live in Lanark and have a MIG (and just about the skills to use it

) and SWBO is away for 3 weeks in June / July so there might be some play time available....

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 02 Jun 2010, 21:53

Cheers guys, I was lazy so took some crappy phone pics, I would really need to jack the car up and drop the spare wheel to get decent ones. If that would help, I'll do that at the weekend. Anyway, here they are:

Rear subframe rusted through, it's like this in a few places:

Sill corrosion at the rear of the sill:

Strangely, the other side is solid as a rock. Possibly some fool has jacked it up here and weakened it.

Corrosion at the front, behind subframe:

Funny thing is, it passed it's MOT in August with no advisories!

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 02 Jun 2010, 21:54

RichardW wrote:IIRC Ally, you are not far from Glasgow....??? I live in Lanark and have a MIG (and just about the skills to use it ) and SWBO is away for 3 weeks in June / July so there might be some play time available....

That's very kind of you mate

I'm over in Clydebank!

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 02 Jun 2010, 23:15

What do you guys think of this?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Clarke-100e-mk2-M ... 45f31f8642

It's near enough I could collect it, and it costs £220 new in Machinemart.

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 03 Jun 2010, 07:52

the first of your second batch of picys is the chassis rail not the sub frame,
the sub frame is unboltable,

if these show the worst of the tin worms eforts, it is fixable,

i think the MOT tester that passed it needs to go to specsavers, unless that chassis rail is outside of the 30cm range and not cosiderd structual,

that mig welder is crap/just a toy, and will not serve you well, i you plan on doing lots of welding, and going by those picys you do, i would look at mig's around the 150 amp range, and fix it up with a propper bottle and regulator,

pub gas is useable and work fine, even though the correct gas for mild steel is argon shield, which is a mix of argon and co2,

regards malcolm

as the small disposable bottles only last about 15min's continuouus wewlding,

regards malcolm

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 03 Jun 2010, 08:21

To be fair on the MOT tester, it was 10 months ago and we've just come through a winter where the councils spread salt like it was going out of fashion. We're now seeing the consequences of it. I'm sure last year it looked fine and remember the MOT man can't poke that hard at suspect patches... A year is plenty of time for rust to set in.

Agreed on the welder. Invest in the best you can afford. They're a lifetime investment. Also, I understand the gasless MIGs are not as good as claimed. I may well pass by MIG completely and go straight to TIG.

The subframe, if showing sny significant rust is best replaced. They're easy enough to unbolt and a scrappy should be able to provide a better one.

I'm worried that one patch of rust appears to be right next to a subframe mount (final picture in the second batch) That's a sure-fire fail. Looks straightforward enough to repair...

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 03 Jun 2010, 13:08

i dont belive rust suddenly appears in that short time and to that degree, but it is possible the rust on that chassis rail is outside of the failable 30cm zone's

and the rust just by the sub frame mount might have still been coverd by the mastic coat PSA apply to the hole of the underside of there car's,

i would like to try a TIG but i think they would be way to much dosh for me to buy one,

regards malcolm

Gammy leg · Unread post by **Gammy leg** » 03 Jun 2010, 23:23

Ally,

Welding is an art so I would recommend plenty of dry runs on similar gash bits of plate before tackling the real thing. Although you're probably not fussed about the final aestetic, it is very easy to burn holes in whats already there if you get the timing wrong.

Gammy

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 03 Jun 2010, 23:44

Understood Gammy. I'm debating if I should take it to a professional. I've got 2 problems, firstly learning how to do the bloody thing, then the expense of buying a reasonable welder that wouldn't get much use otherwise.

Everyone says 405's don't rust, why is mine rusty

Unread post by **RichardW** » 04 Jun 2010, 09:26

There's quite a bit of fab / welding to do there Ally. You might well find the cost of getting someone to do it will be near the cost of a welder. I've got a Clarke 135 TE which produces reasonable results (even in my cack hands!), will weld up to 5mm, and is fan cooled for prolonged use - £200 - £250 at Machine Mart I think. However, they're a life long investment really, there's all sorts of odds and ends that need a bit of welding, and it's useful to drag the MIG out and do it.

The rear sill should be easy enough - the hole will be bigger once cleaned up though! The front one might be tricky - you will need to give it a good clean up and assess whether it extends towards the subframe mount, in which case the subframe might need dropping to effect a proper repair. You will also need to assess what's above it inside the car to see what needs removing (carpets etc - they burn nicely!). Repairing those cross members at the rear is going to be tougher though - depends on if there is enough to weld to, which may make the fabrication harder without a folder.

You're probably into a good weekend's work to sort that lot out!

evilally wrote:Everyone says 405's don't rust, why is mine rusty

'Cos we live in the West of Scotland where they throw salt about with Gay abandon and it rains all the time

My 7 year old Picasso has rusted a sill through

9 year old Xantia is OK though. Touch wood

Unread post by **myglaren** » 04 Jun 2010, 16:43

Careful with that welder - check out pictures 10 & 11 here.

evilally · Unread post by **evilally** » 04 Jun 2010, 16:43

Ok, I think the plan will be:

Drop the subframe. I'll scrub it up and coat it with something. I'll probably pull the steering rack out as well, scrub that up and replace what needs replacing (I know one of the boots is split). Then take care of the welding, re-assemble.

Next, I think I'd like to drop the rear beam and give it propper going over. That would let me in to have a good look at everything under there and sort what needs sorting.

Bugger, another project thread already......

What do you think of this, it's probably about as much as I'd want to spend:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... ig-welders