ZX Brakes pt2

KEB1 · Unread post by **KEB1** » 27 May 2010, 17:10

HI All,

OK, so I think I am getting to the bottom of my problem with these shoes. After taking a good look at the old shoes it suddenly hit me that the push on ratchet plate (star washer for want of a better phrase) might not have been fitted correctly by the garage that did the brakes before I owned the car.
Am I right in assuming that the ratchet blade for the handbrake adjuster should be fitted on the scroll pin and then secured by a ratchet plate (star washer) ?
When I got the drum off, the blade was fitted over the washer and I assumed this was correct. However, now looking at it it appears the blade should seat on the shoe with the two pips on the blade connecting with the slots in the shoe and then the washer pushes on to secure the blade to the shoe.
This photo shoes the shoes as fitted originally and I am assuming the washer pushes on over the pin indicated by the arrow and it is not placed under the blade as it is in the photo ? Otherwise, it would act as a spacer and not a securing device. As previously installed, it was only the spring that was holding blade on.

Any thoughts ?

Cheers,

Kristian.

KEB1 · Unread post by **KEB1** » 27 May 2010, 18:03

Sorry, photo didn't appear.

Unread post by **myglaren** » 27 May 2010, 18:22

It is there now - some hosting sites can be a bit slow to respond.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 27 May 2010, 20:00

My brakes have the star washer as a spacer under the blade, not as a securing device over the blade. I don't know whether this is correct or not. That is how they were fitted when I got the car. I would be interested in hearing the correct answer to this question as well.

Is there a missing shoe holding spring on the right hand shoe in the picture?

There's a test method for checking the self-adjusters. Place two screwdriver blades inbetween the piston faces and the shoes at the top and lever the shoes out slightly. You should see the self adjuster working.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 27 May 2010, 20:26

What is the problem you are having with the shoes anyway? The handbrake cables can be a problem. Handbrake not releasing properly is what I normally find. Check for bulges/rust in the outer covers. The outer cover can also break into two pieces which is not obvious.

I forgot to say that the test method for the self-adjusters came from Malcolm (citronut). Very handy it is too.

Paul

KEB1 · Unread post by **KEB1** » 27 May 2010, 22:11

Hi Paul,

There was a squeal from the right rear and once the drum was off it is obvious that the leading edge of the shoe was quite well worn and the cylinder was leaking. I have new shoes, cylinders and fitting kit for both sides so I can rebuild both sides completely and just re use the adjuster mech. The handbrake was fine and it had a new cable not long before I bought it.
However, I have just found a Renault 5 manual which has a better photographic section on the same Gurling system as fitted to my ZX and, indeed, the adjuster "floats" on the washer. A bit of a "temporary" looking arrangement but that is how it is. It is a bit like a clock mechanism.
Now I am a bit more au fait with the system I can get back and rebuild this side and get the other one striped and re built.
Thanks for the test tip, it will be very useful.

The shoe retaining clip came off when the drum dropped slightly during removal so it is missing in the photo.

Hopefully, I can get on and finish the job now.

Many thanks all.

Cheers,

Kristian.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 28 May 2010, 20:40

That's that mystery solved then. At least I know that the star washers are correct in my brakes now.

Paul

KEB1 · Unread post by **KEB1** » 28 May 2010, 22:46

Glad to have been able to return the favour. I am getting there now but by 'eck those shoe retainer springs are difficult to get to lock into position.
On other cars in the past they just go over the pin and lock with a bit of pressure from some pliers and a quick turn.
These springs are so strong that it's almost imposable to get them to play ball.
And I thought this was going to be a quick job.....

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 29 May 2010, 20:12

Yes, those springs are a pain to get on. The rear drum brakes on the ZX are one of the worst aspects of the car. What should be an easy job turns into a multi-day struggle. I remember having so many attempts at getting the springs on that I started losing the strength in my arm after a while. The next day, I was able to do it. There are tools around that might help. I've got one but it's not the right one for the ZX. What you need is something like a socket with the biggest handle you can find, so you can push the springs down without getting too tired.

The springs that go between the shoes are also a pain to get on. The screwdriver method is the way I do it now. Put the spring end in one hole and a screwdriver in the other hole. Hook the spring around the screwdriver. Then pull the screwdriver over towards the destination hole. When you get past 90 degrees the spring should slide down the screwdriver and go into the hole.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 29 May 2010, 23:23

I tried to replace my cylinders once but had trouble with the nut holding the brake pipe to the cylinder. It was seized. I rounded the nut off and I suspected that I damaged the pipe. I ended up taking it to the garage in the end. You need to be careful and expect the nut to be difficult to remove without causing damage. If you damage the pipe or coupling then you might end up having to change the pipe from the cylinder to the rubber hose. You can probably get the pipe from the main dealer for about 10 pounds or so. Or get it made for you.

Paul

KEB1 · Unread post by **KEB1** » 30 May 2010, 18:31

I'm relieved to hear you say that, I thought it was just me losing strength.
I ordered a double ended Sealy tool which might help but if not, I'll have to make something up. I can get it almost past the pin with long nosed pliers but just not quite enough to stop it catching on the pin and turning it instead of turning behind it and locking. It's an after market kit and while the springs are slightly shorter than the ones that were on there, they are a slightly heavier gauge making what should be a simple job a struggle.
I got the pipe undone with out too much problem using a brake pipe spanner and a liberal application of WD40 and the two bolts came out of the cylinder without too much hassle either. I was going to replace them but you can only buy bags of 50 from the dealer, only £7 + VAT per bag, but still if I can reuse the originals, that's £7 saved.
The return springs I am hoping won't be too much of a problem as I have two pairs of long nosed pliers that are about a foot long which should be enough leverage to get them into place (Fingers crossed).

JohnD · Unread post by **JohnD** » 30 May 2010, 19:07

the_weaver wrote:I tried to replace my cylinders once but had trouble with the nut holding the brake pipe to the cylinder. It was seized.

I've got both rear cylinders to do on daughter's 306 - which are the same as the ZX. I recently replaced the brake cables prior to MOT and noticed the cylinders were weeping slightly.

And yes - the shoe springs are awful to replace.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 30 May 2010, 21:22

Good luck to the both of you anyway. I'm glad my cylinders are done.

I've got one of those double-ended tools. Not sure if it's a Sealy or not. I jammed a socket and T-bar handle over the other end of the tool to give more leverage.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 30 May 2010, 21:32

If you have trouble with the return springs you might want to try using a piece of nylon strimmer line to pull the spring into/out of place. I used the thicker line for petrol strimmers (2.4mm diameter I think). Cut a length of line. Loop it through the hook on the spring. Bring the two ends of the line further out from the spring by a foot or two and wrap both ends of the line around the handle of a hammer. Then use the hammer handle to pull the spring.

Paul