Head Gasket Fluid

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 May 2010, 03:23

Hi folks

Is there a cheap way of testing the coolant for combustion products from a blown head gasket. The cheapest test kits seem to be about 30 pounds. Are there any cheap kits or tricks that people know? Is there a fluid that will do the job?

Thanks

Post by **myglaren** » 10 May 2010, 06:57

Quite a lot of garages will have an hydrocarbon sniffer and not charge much for a test.
Doesn't work on diesels apparently.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 10 May 2010, 11:03

As Myglaren advises, some garages will give a free general assessment.

DIY: From stone cold, start the engine, open the expansion tank and look for bubbles. Stick your nose close and see if you can detect the smell of exhaust.

What is it that makes you suspect?

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 May 2010, 20:06

My car is currently being pressure tested by a garage, so I might know more tomorrow. It's a ZX 1.9D

What's making me suspect the head gasket is a sudden change in performance following a cambelt/water pump/coolant change. The car is sluggish now and noisier - a sort of tappety sound from the top of the engine when accelerating. Bad starting from cold when it previously used to start first time. Now starts at the sixth attempt with lots of smoke out of the exhaust and rough running. Puffs of exhaust smoke from somewhere at the back of the engine or exhaust manifold, worse when cold and may be ok when hot. The rough running gradually gets better as the car warms up. Can't see any bubbles in the coolant but there is a slight change in the surface of the coolant when the engine is running and possibly a film on the top all the time. The coolant looks clean enough but it is new. The coolant doesn't smell of exhaust but the engine bay does due to the leaks mentioned previously. There is a loss of coolant which doesn't seem to be leaking out anywhere. About half a pint loss of coolant for an hour's idling. However, it's only been about four days since the coolant was renewed so some coolant loss could possibly be expected (but it seems to be too much loss to me). There doesn't seem to be too much pressure in the coolant when I take the radiator cap off in the morning but maybe the pressure is leaking away along with the coolant. Heater works. Radiator fans work.

Looks like the head gasket to me but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

I'm now gathering information for the forthcoming head gasket change. So, some questions:-

What do I need to know about notches on head gaskets? Will the existing head gasket still have it's notches visible and can I just buy another one with the same number of notches? Do I really need to measure the piston protrusion accurately? Do I need a dial gauge which I haven't got? I have got a digital vernier caliper (Maplin). I've got feeler gauges but no shims.

Is the head likely to be warped? How do I test the flatness? Will a one metre spirit level do as a straight edge? Should I get the head skimmed anyway and how what does it mean for the gasket thickness? What happens if I get the piston measurement wrong? Will the piston hit the valves? Is it safer to get a thicker gasket if in doubt? Will this reduce performance? Am I right in thinking that the engine block will never warp as it's made from steel, so doesn't need checking?

Paul

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 10 May 2010, 20:54

Cambelt change then poor starting running. Get the timing re-checked. Hopefully the belt was misaligned.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 10 May 2010, 22:07

The garage are working on it tomorrow morning. They're going to start the car from cold so they can see the problem at it's worst.

Paul

addo · Post by **addo** » 11 May 2010, 00:05

If the garage doesn't have a test kit - why should you pay for their guesswork? Around here, because some people still recore radiators, there are a number of radiator shops with the test gear.

Some Fleabay sellers offer litmus type strips, perhaps the factors offer them too? I've no idea how effective these are.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 11 May 2010, 23:20

What seems to have happened is that the head gasket has blown when the car was in the garage having the cooling system refilled. Perhaps they didn't bleed out the airlocks properly. Anyway they've been working on it and I've had the car back today and it looks like it's running ok now. I'll see what the cold starts are like tomorrow. I'll be checking the coolant over the next few days to make sure the leaks have stopped.

Paul

evilally · Post by **evilally** » 11 May 2010, 23:47

Everything you say suggests that the timing is out. The most likely cause of your coolant loss is that the system wasn't bled properly, and what you are seeing is pockets of air working themselves out. Sounds like sloppy work, but easily fixed. I doubt your head gasket has gone

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 12 May 2010, 00:21

So they diagnosed the head gasket and fixed it in one day then, did they charge you for replacing it? Did they have the head skimmed?
If as you say it only started when the timing belt was changed it wasn't the head gasket but the pump/cam timing was out. Was it the same garage that fitted the belt?

Now according to autodata its 6.3 hours for the head gasket, if they started it this morning and got it hot they should not have even started to strip it until it was stone COLD, then they would have to test it after so Im guessing its a full days work at least.

Not saying they have conned you but.........IF the head gasket had gone when they were filling the cooling system it should be down to then to fix for nothing as they didn't bleed it correctly in the first place.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 12 May 2010, 00:22

the_weaver wrote:What seems to have happened is that the head gasket has blown when the car was in the garage

I don't know which is worse - the garage giving you the car back running like a bag of nails or them admitting to blowing the head gasket!

Totally agree with evilally and h2ocooler

I'm interested to know if they fix the exhaust leak from the manifold - that will be telling.

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 00:37

I think I must have had a poor mechanic to start with and then they put one of their good mechanics on the job because I kept going back and complaining about it.

What made me suspect the head gasket is that there seemed to be exhaust smoke coming from the back of the engine. I couldn't see if it was coming from the engine or the exhaust manifold. As the exhaust manifold was not leaking before and should not have been disturbed during the work then I assumed the smoke must be coming from the head gasket.

I don't know what what they've done to fix the car but it does seem to be lot better now and I'm hoping that's the last time I'll have to take it back.

I'm sure that many problems with cars are actually caused by poor/sloppy mechanics in garages. They do the job that you pay for but they create a load of other problems whilst they're at it. Most people won't notice at the time but when they get poor starting, slow acceleration, stalling, high fuel consumption etc they probably think it's time to buy a new car.

The number of bad things I've seen garages do over the years is astonishing. The usual things - not putting plastic covers back on, breaking plastic covers, only putting back half the screws, or in some cases one screw, melting wheel arch liners when welding inner wings because they could be bothered to take them off, not refitting anti-rattle springs on brake pads, "bunging" a litre of oil in the gearbox after working on the driveshafts and not waiting for it to drain to the bottom of the hole, so you end up with your car leaking very smelly oil everywhere you go. The list is endless.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 01:17

There were some replies posted while I was in the middle of writing my last post, so here is a bit more info:-

I paid only for the original work which was: cambelt, water pump, water housing and refill with new antifreeze. I didn't pay for the subsequent fixes or head gasket if that's what they changed. All work was done by the same garage.

I don't know whether they actually changed the head gasket or not. I too was wondering about the time factor and thinking that they must have worked very quickly to change the head gasket. They have got quite a few mechanics and at least two people worked on it, one of whom said he was working late. So it's possible that they changed the head gasket. I suppose it's also possible that they skimmed the head as there is an engine rebuilding place down the road. However it all does seem to have been done in too short a time really. Maybe the head gasket wasn't leaking, the water loss was due to air locks being ejected, and the exhaust smoke was coming from a manifold gasket leak which they've fixed. The bad running could have been due to poor fitting of the cambelt by the first mechanic. They did also adjust the diesel pump timing (or diesel timing?) I think after I complained about the poor running.

They said the car didn't lose water when they left it overnight, so I'm hoping that's that fixed, but I'll be checking the water over the next few days. I suppose that one other explanation may be that the head gasket has gone and it's still leaking water and I'm going to find water loss tomorrow morning. We shall see tomorrow. One further possible explanation that I can think of is that the head gasket was leaking and they fixed all the problems with some sort of magic sealing liquid that they put in the water. I hope not.

Paul

the_weaver · Post by **the_weaver** » 12 May 2010, 12:24

Some further news in this saga:-

The garage said the head gasket was ok and they didn't change it. The pressure test was ok. No water loss apparent this morning so that looks promising.

The garage have done some work to try to improve the performance and starting. The performance was better when I tried the car last night when the engine was hot. This morning the car started at about the fourth attempt which is better than the sixth attempt. It ran better but not as good as it should do. One problem I have now which wasn't there before the cambelt was changed is that there is exhaust smoke coming from somewhere behind the top of the engine, possibly the exhaust manifold area or coupling. Mainly when the engine is cold I think. I asked the chap about this and he said that diesels do sometimes emit smoke into the engine bay through some sort of recirculation gauze filter. You've probably never noticed it before he said. He's right there because it wasn't there before. Is this true or not? He said they could try changing the gauze filter or the exhaust gaskets if I wanted them to. Sounds like he meant that they'd do that for more money. I'll wait and see what everybody thinks on this one.

The garage have left the bottom plastic cambelt cover off. I asked him to refit it and he said that the cover won't fit properly over that new water pump that I gave them because it's a different design to the water pump that was there before. I bought the water pump from gsfcarparts five years ago but never used it. It's gsf part number N17018 and the pump is made by Airtex and has the number 1361 on the box. The previous water pump was fitted by the garage so could well have been a different design. Is the man telling the truth? Should I be driving the car with no lower cambelt cover on?

I would like to check the cambelt timing myself to see if it's out. Is it just a case of trying to get the M8 bolts in the three holes and the 8mm drill in the hole behind the starter. Anything else to check?

I'm getting the feeling that I might have to take the car somewhere else to get the cambelt done properly, and then persue the first garage for a refund. I don't really trust them to redo it again if I find that the timing is out. The performance of the engine was so bad at first that I actually suspected that the garage had swapped my good engine for somebody else's bad engine. I'm still a bit suspicious of certain events that have happened. I checked the engine number on the front of the engine and it matches my documents but the engine number did come off in my hand when I touched it. I hope that's just a corroded rivet. Are there any other places where I can check the identification numbers of my engine and gearbox?

Paul

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 12 May 2010, 12:42

Hi Paul.
I do hope that they have fixed your problems and am glad to hear that they did not charge you for it, It is hard to find a decent mechanic that can be trusted.

Rob