Help desperately needed

Relayman · Post by **Relayman** » 08 Apr 2010, 19:57

Hi guys,
Any assistance on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
I recently changed the fuel tank on my 2002 Relay 2.2HDi and now she will start but only run for a few seconds and then stops, I have had a diagnostic test carried out and the following codes came up PO148 - Fuel delivery error / 3rd piston deactivation and PO191 - Fuel rail pressure sensor range / performance, I have changed the in tank fuel pump thinking that it may have broken down following it being moved from one tank into another - no difference!!, then tried another high pressure pump to eliminate that and still the same??? Help please because this is my bread and butter van and it's cost me £170 in parts alone apart from the tank and that's without the bill I've yet to get from my mate!! besides I'm rapidly pulling out the little bit hair i had left!!
Darren

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 08 Apr 2010, 21:24

Why was the tank changed & was it running ok before that ?

vince · Post by **vince** » 08 Apr 2010, 22:11

Hi Darren, spooky but i had a guy in the shop i was helping today who had an identicle problem with a 90BHP HDI Picasso.

He too replaced the tank and the lift pump in the tank and also the high pressure pump....the vehicle starts on "easy start" but he is onyl getting 80bar pressure supplied to the rail when it requires 200bar to start.

The part that controls the fuel delivery pressure is the fuel pressure regulator located behind or underneath the pump (i think). If yours starts but then fails then it is lack of fuel or an air leak that will be causing the problem.

I advised him that before i replace the high pressure pump he is convinced is faulty (im not convinced) that he gets the pump independantly tested on its own to eliminate it.

In your case what i would try (if it is possible) is to hook up a can of fuel direct to the high pressure pump. (This can be done from the fuel filter supply pipes i think) If it runs then you know the problem lies further back in the system and perhaps maybe a blocked fuel line, an air leak or a dicky fuel pressure regulator which is causing a loss in fuel pressure?

Unfortunately these arent always 5 minute problems to solve but i feel your pain, i had a passat once that did this and it took a while to find the fault. In the end it had an air leak on one of the fuel supply pipes which although not visible or leaking fuel anywhere was sucking in air and vacating the pump of fuel. If you keep posting your progress on here then perhaps other ideas may come to light.

A good question posted was why was the tank replaced and did it run ok before

Good luck pal

HDI Dave · Post by **HDI Dave** » 08 Apr 2010, 22:35

I was thinking the same thing,ie, "A good question posted was why was the tank replaced and did it run ok before

"
...was there a problem before the tank was changed?

Then i'd go with Vince's advice... 2 cars, with 2 changed pumps..and still the same? highly likely it's summat else... : )

vince wrote:Hi Darren, spooky but i had a guy in the shop i was helping today who had an identicle problem with a 90BHP HDI Picasso.

He too replaced the tank and the lift pump in the tank and also the high pressure pump....the vehicle starts on "easy start" but he is onyl getting 80bar pressure supplied to the rail when it requires 200bar to start.

The part that controls the fuel delivery pressure is the fuel pressure regulator located behind or underneath the pump (i think). If yours starts but then fails then it is lack of fuel or an air leak that will be causing the problem.

Google it,there's loads: here's just one,albeit a different car,but they all seem to show a faulty sensor - "PO191= Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Error"
http://www.f150forum.com/f4/2004-f150-c ... 301-19020/

Relayman · Post by **Relayman** » 10 Apr 2010, 14:51

Cheers everyone, the current state of play at the moment is:
I changed the fuel tank because the old one was leaking and yes the van ran fine prior to the tank change.
Believing I may have damaged or "upset" the low pressure pump in the tank when moving it from one tank to another I then tried replacing this pump with no difference seen.
Following a diagnostic test with the following codes being identified - P0101- MAF sensor, P0110 - Intake Air Temp sensor, P0148 - Fuel delivery error / 3rd piston deactivation and P0191 - Fuel Rail pressure sensor I have tried another high pressure pump which seems to have cleared the P0148 code and the van will now start, even though more difficult to start than when the other pump was on, and run on tickover forever, she will even rev sweetly whilst stationary however when driving to test if fixed the engine management light on the dash omes on and it goes into limp home mode but will continue to run and then once it's switched off will just not start up again unless towed???, I have also tried a fresh fuel rail pressure sensor to eliminate this with no difference found, by the way the Mass air flow sensor was replaced with a new one about a month prior to the tank change and has been running fine with this new sensor even though it is not a genuine Citroen part so I have tended to disregard the P0101 and 110 codes as being the signifcant cause in this instance. Both my mechanic mate and myself are very close to towing her to a nice quiet spot and toasting some marshmallows off her

I don't think I need a mechanic anymore but rather Harry Potter or a young priest and an old priest!!!

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 10 Apr 2010, 19:27

This may sound stupid but is the tank vented to atmosphere? you did'nt kink a breather pipe or something putting the tank in? I am not familiar with the tank installation but given that fuel caps seem to fit tight these days the tank must have a breather if blocked then as soon as you pump fuel out you will have a partial vacuum the lift pump would'nt work for long against an increasing vaccum.

cachaciero

dexy350 · Post by **dexy350** » 10 Apr 2010, 22:07

similar problem with my 2.2 hdi right pain in the arse when the weather was cold ,started only via towing apart from once which would start at all mr RAC man was called who came used easy start after 5 mins of turning over finally fired into action ,he pluged his laptop into the car and said there was no fuel going to the rail and suggested that i changed the pump in the tank ,which i did 14 months back when it packed in ,do they go through pumps that quick??
now the car has started ever since ,so iam taking that somewhere along the system something was causing a vaccum esp since it was cold. iam waiting for the next time if it doesnt start which i will then undo the fuel cap to see if will solve the problem ..easiest and cheapest way first

just have to wait and see
cheers
dexy

xmexclusive · Post by **xmexclusive** » 12 Apr 2010, 11:55

Seem to recall an Xantia repair note about kinking the return pipe on fitting the tank. This caused stalling problems from fuel starvation. Citroen managed to send a batch out from the factory like this.

John

Relayman · Post by **Relayman** » 12 Apr 2010, 17:51

Hi all, Just tried a fresh fuel delivery pipe from the top of the low pressure in tank pump to the fuel filter - still no difference!!, then tried running her with the fuel filler cap off - still no difference!!, when cold she'll start off the key albeit a little reluctantly and she'll then tick over as sweet as a nut for as long as you want, she'll even rev sweetly right through the 5000rpm mark and she can even be held at 5000rpm with no problems whilst stationarybut not long after pulling away she'll go into limp home mode with the engine management light coming on and then once switched off she will not start back up off the key but give her the slightest of bumps and she's away again???? Doing a diagnostic test again shows the same fault codes P0101, P0110 and P0191, The two Air Sensor codes (0101 and 0110) come on as soon as the van is started and it will run fine with these codes present however as soon as she goes into limp home mode then the 0191 - Fuel Rail Pressure range / performance problem comes up

Post by **quintet** » 14 Apr 2010, 22:13

Im just curious but was this a new fuel tank you fitted or a 2nd hand one? if it was 2nd hand how clean was it inside, im wondering if your fuel filter is blocked with crud out of a 2nd hand tank, this could well make it awkward to start but ok on tickover but suffer from fuel starvation under load (ie driving) this would also result in fuel pressure problems, for the sake of a few quid I'd replace the filter (I re-read your posts but don't recall seeing if you've already tried this) & try clearing the fuel fines with a air line on low pressure (if possible).

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 15 Apr 2010, 07:21

Sounds like you could have a faulty injector or two. I think you need to do a leak off check on the injectors, they can cause the fuel system to loose pressure under load. Ideally you need a kit with pipes that attatch to measuring bottles, if the engine runs run it for around a minute with the bottles connected & compare the return rates if there is one or two that are way different to the others then they are faulty.
Someone on here made a DIY injector leak off kit (I think it might have been JamesQB ??) & posted the pics. Would be worth doing a search.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 16 Apr 2010, 01:50

I did indeed: http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=

And the results were very interesting:

I've since changed no.2 injector and just waiting to see if local garage we use has the ability to program the 16-digit C2i code into the ECU. A leak-off test carried out after injector change showed the replacement to have identical leakage quantity to injector no.1 (far right in pic - 4-3-2-1).

Incidentally, this injector with high leakage made the car very hard to start indeed, causing a reduction in the high pressure rail from the leakage, most noticeable at crank due to lower pressure anyway.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 17 Apr 2010, 08:07

This is very interesting. If a high 'leak off' rate causes loss of fuel rail pressure under load then I think I need to do this leak off test on my C5.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 17 Apr 2010, 10:06

JamesQB

Thank you for adding to the store of ingenious DIY tools I shall go out today and purchase four small coke's in plastic bottles just for the time when I may need them

cachaciero

Relayman · Post by **Relayman** » 19 Apr 2010, 18:53

Thanks for all the replies guys, She lives!!! but still not trouble free, On Thursday last week I had a pressure test carried out on the low pressure pump which was fine, the same again on the high pressure pump again fine and then a "leak off" test carried out on the injectors revealed one of the injectors "leaking off" badly and another was leaking more than desired allowing the pressure in the rail to drop and hence the limp home mode. On Friday i replaced the worst offending injector with a reconditioned one and she was running again but whilst running her around on Saturday she twice (over a 40 odd mile trip) died on me and the engine management light came on, the first time approx 20 miles into the trip, I left her for a minute and then she started up again sweet as a nut and the engine management light went out, she ran well again for around a further 20 miles before doing the same, another leak off test now showed two other badly leaking off injectors and the final one leaking off as well but not as bad as the other two, it's now thought that the one good / reconditioned injector is forcing the regained pressure onto the remaining three old / weakened injectors. So hopefully replacing these injectors will now finally put this motor's demons to rest lol

French Car Forum

Help desperately needed

Help desperately needed

Relay 2.2HDi problem