2.2.HDi C5 Diesel Leak

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 01 Apr 2010, 17:34

Well yesterday was cambelt day at 98950 miles decided that it really had to be done, besides the auxillary belt looked like it was ready to fall apart at any moment. What with the weather and host of other things decided I couldn't be arsed and handed it over to a local independant.

Got a call from the mechanic some hours later saying "Hi did you know that you had a diesel leak from the back of the pump?" to which the reply was er...no! "Yes he says funny thing is that it's stopped and I can't make it come back"

Picked up the car drove it around for the rest of the day, and no pools of diesel under the car.

This morning having forgotten about the non existant leak went out started the car ran the engine a while while checking a few things on the Lexia and finally drove into town. When I got back I noticed a rather large puddle of something in the road where I had been and yes you guessed diesel

BUT looking underneath there is nothing dripping can't see anything coming of the pump.

Now it is beginning to appear that this only leaks after it's been standing a while and something heat or pressure will after a while seal the leak.
Problem is that it is near impossible to see the back of the pump without taking the filter canister out and then one doesn't have any diesel to feed the pump with.
There would appear to be two possible culprits either the regulator electrovalve seals or the High Pressure connection if it was the high pressure connection I think I would expect it to leak period but not so much in drips as a mist spray but maybe not.

Anybody had this, seen this, know anything about it? Any gotchers taking the filter and can off?

cachaciero

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 01 Apr 2010, 18:13

Not come across this. I wonder if it could be coming from the 3rd piston solenoid?

Surely the pump will be very tight and it must be coming from a pipe connection.

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 01 Apr 2010, 18:36

KevMayer wrote:Not come across this. I wonder if it could be coming from the 3rd piston solenoid?

Surely the pump will be very tight and it must be coming from a pipe connection.

Hi Kev

I really don't know at the mo it's not easy to see the back of the pump because of the filter, tomorrow I will have a look with a mirror when I start it up and see if I can see more then. The third solenoid is on top of the pump and it will be easier to see any leaks there but the mechanic that saw it first is adamant that it appears to be from the back of the pump. Well the regulator EV plugs in at the back and is held in with two screws and comes with three seals and a gasket according to the parts list. Unfortunately I do not have a sectional drawing of the pump to establish internal flows so it is not clear if where the EV fits in there would be a lot of fuel there or no.

Really need the views of someone who has the T shirt

Rgds Cachaciero

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 02 Apr 2010, 17:56

Well stranger and stranger, finally managed to "see" the leak today it is actually coming from the RH end under side of what I will call the front "cylinder head" This is held on with four screws the two top ones are reasonably accessible but the bottom two will need a special torx spanner to be made access being nigh impossible.

The strange thing is this:- Start engine this morning, drips rapidly apparent and quite frequent. Stop engine wash all around the area with paraffin place mirror such that there is some visibility of underside. Start engine, quickly starts to drip, run engine for five minutes while looking at it no apparent reduction in flow, give the engine some welly 2K revs drips stop and havn't come back for the rest of the day.....

Have driven around with a lump of sponge stuffed underneath it that way if sponge gets full of diesel I will know if it's leaking when driving, but no, sponge stays dry.

I really can't envisage what's happening would be nice to know what's under the "cylinder head" be nice to have a drawing of the pump internals.

I guess that the only course of action will be to make a spanner and try and nip the lower screws up, however for now starting procedure has changed i.e start engine give it some boot and then let it idle.

cachaciero

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 02 Apr 2010, 20:21

Take a look at this link:-

http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder ... epump.html

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 03 Apr 2010, 10:54

KevMayer wrote:Take a look at this link:-

http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder ... epump.html

Thnks for that Kev that is really interesting I need to spend a bit of time getting my head around it.

Rgds Cahaciero

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 03 Apr 2010, 19:48

Having studied the referenced info there still doesn't seem to be anything that really explains this. The irony was that digging around in the Lexia software I found the exact same information. The problem is that I don't think that the drawings are proper X section drawings rather approximate for the purposes of education. they don't show all the pluged drillings etc.

Anyway took the filter out and while that improved visibility it did little for access. Tried to move the TORKX bolts that hold the head on, just not do-able in situ, I suspect that they will have been put in with loctite and may well have been tightened up with an impact spanner, if they come out it will only be on the bench and in a vice

So what to do, well decided that a coat of "varnish" along the join line might be good enough, looking at this in the mirror the join was so close it just didn't seem possible that the amount of diesel I was seeing could ever get out of there, AND then I discovered the thing which the drawings didn't show. There is what appears to be a plugged drilling in the end of the head, now as far as I could see there was a plug in there but it could have been weeping and then I discovered another hole this in the main casting, I couldn't see for sure if this was a plugged hole or a porosity in the casting.

An amount of metal filled epoxy was made up and liberally smeared on some fiber glass tape this was applied to the lower head / casting join and second piece made to go over the end of the head / casting so sealing all the holes whatever they do.

This is a bodge there are no other words to describe it ! but if it saves me changing the pump for a while I will live with it. Is it a success? ah! well we won't know that until tomorrow after the epoxy has hardened.

cachaciero

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 04 Apr 2010, 11:42

Well not a 100% success. Started engine, after a few seconds started to drip but only dripped four times and then stopped.
That it did leak did not really surprise me for epoxy to adhere properly the surfaces really need to be degreased properly, and given the degree of access I couldn't be sure of this, couldn't even be 100% sure of where it needed to go. So I guess that I have managed to restrict the flow rate some and this presumably means that now at idle the internal pressure in the pump gets high enough to do whatever it is doing internally to close the leak.

It's a slight improvement but not a solution.

I guess it's going to have to stay that way for a while until I find another pump at an affordable price, anybody know what the difference is between a 2.2 pump and a 2.0 pump of the same age? they look similar go on the same bracketry and have the same pinion.

cachaciero

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 04 Apr 2010, 19:41

That's quite a problem you have. I bet it's been like that for quite a while.

I approached a ebay seller (cprcomponents) who was braking a C5 2.2 Hdi. He had the pump. Gave me these numbers which must have been off the label:-

Bosch 555. cr/1s3/r70/10-165 0 445 010 021 01.07.05 b 034.16.131800 and 4c

said he wanted £120 +p&p. It came off a car with a snapped cambelt. It may still be available.

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 04 Apr 2010, 21:09

Kev I think you may be right it could have been there from new although I rather doubt that. Given that the only time I can make this happen is after its been standing overnight and as soon as the engine gets above about 1200 rpm it stops under normal conditions it's hardly noticable. Would be nice to be able to explain it properly but as I can't even see for sure where it's leaking from I shall have to forgo that solace

This little exercise has raised my interest in the third piston again. The Lexia tells me that even when hot the third piston is engaged, the pump pressure is within +-2 bars of reference pressure and regulator current is somewhere in the middle which means that it has quite a bit of regulating capacity left. Now according to that write up on the pump the pump requires 3.5Kw to drive it say 3HP now on a simplistic note that is 1HP per piston, so if the third piston is deactivated that is saving 1HP worth of fuel.
At idle and on the overun at least I reckon that two pistons will supply more than enough fuel so I wonder why isn't the third piston de-activated? is it ever de-activated I wonder? must go for a drive with the lexia plugged in.

Yes I could be interested in a good pump for about £120.00 but I don't plan on changing it immediately if it gets no worse I think that I will live with it for a while, I expect the water pump will need doing sometime in the next 30K then would be the time.

cachaciero

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 05 Apr 2010, 11:21

About the 3rd piston. Bare in mind that when the solenoid is activated, which the lexia is probably reporting, then the solenoid has pushed out it's plunger and the 3rd piston will be de activated.

Solenoid activated = 3rd piston de activated

h2ocooler · Unread post by **h2ocooler** » 06 Apr 2010, 20:29

cachaciero wrote:Kev I think you may be right it could have been there from new although I rather doubt that. Given that the only time I can make this happen is after its been standing overnight and as soon as the engine gets above about 1200 rpm it stops under normal conditions it's hardly noticable. Would be nice to be able to explain it properly but as I can't even see for sure where it's leaking from I shall have to forgo that solace

This little exercise has raised my interest in the third piston again. The Lexia tells me that even when hot the third piston is engaged, the pump pressure is within +-2 bars of reference pressure and regulator current is somewhere in the middle which means that it has quite a bit of regulating capacity left. Now according to that write up on the pump the pump requires 3.5Kw to drive it say 3HP now on a simplistic note that is 1HP per piston, so if the third piston is deactivated that is saving 1HP worth of fuel.
At idle and on the overun at least I reckon that two pistons will supply more than enough fuel so I wonder why isn't the third piston de-activated? is it ever de-activated I wonder? must go for a drive with the lexia plugged in.

Yes I could be interested in a good pump for about £120.00 but I don't plan on changing it immediately if it gets no worse I think that I will live with it for a while, I expect the water pump will need doing sometime in the next 30K then would be the time.

cachaciero

Please do sort it out, Im a biker too and the WORSE thing for us is a car/van/lorry leaking diesel along the road, also if you do leak when driving you can be prosecuted for it and made to pay for a cleanup by the council (traffic police fried has told me that little gem)
Rob

cachaciero · Unread post by **cachaciero** » 22 Apr 2010, 13:46

Well been driving around for a couple of weeks now with a "drip catcher" under the pump which always seems to be dry. Did an after start up check on two successive mornings no drips after start up at idle.

This is a puzzle but if it stays that way I promise not to worry about it (to much).

puzzled of Haywards Heath.