Non-Citroen question - hope nobody minds

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 13 Mar 2010, 21:16

Hi all,

Hope nobody minds me asking a question not Citroen related, but I've found this forum to have the most knowledgable and helpful people, and although I've tried the respective forums online I'm no further forward.

Because I couldn't afford a Xantia, my preferred car, and a family member was selling his car cheaply and accepted payment instalments due to the family connection, I've ended up with a F*rd Esc*rt 1.8 LX 16V petrol car, P reg (1996). It's got one major issue and one nuisance issue that's recently come along.

The major issue concerns the handling: it feels 'loose' on the road, and seems to steer itself and wander a lot, especially on corners and over bumpy surfaces. If it hits an indented manhole or other small recess the car lurches to one side a bit and overall it feels like the wheels aren't connected to the road very well. I'm constantly turning the steering wheel tiny amounts while driving straight ahead, like in an old film, and at speed it feels dreadfully unstable and makes me nervous of directional changes, especially ones that are quite sudden, like after overtaking.

I've also found it 'grabs' when making a sudden steering change, something it does on one particular bend each time, as though the wheels want to stay pointed where they're going and even pull a bit more into the turn - this also had me almost hit a parked car when I accelerated hard then pulled around it: the wheels grabbed and tried to take me into the car, requiring a sudden jerk of the wheel to overcome the force and get the wheel back. When I overtook on a slightly uneven road the other day, I stayed in the wrong lane way too long because the steering felt so loose and unresponsive that I was nervous to just haul the car over like I normally would. I now do not overtake for safety reasons.

Sorry for the essay there, but it's hard to explain in writing something one feels when driving a car.

I changed the wishbones as a precaution - bushes were split badly - but couldn't afford £140 for a pair of F*rd ones, so bought some cheap ones from eBay, something I'm now told was a mistake since they aren't as good and can leave or cause handling issues, but the supplier says they're made in the EU to certain specs and they've supplied over the net and to over 30 MOT stations with no complaints. They recommended changing anti-roll bar bushes and droplinks, and if no better and I believe the wishbones to be no good, they'll refund me and send wishbones to manufacturer for testing.

I've since changed the anti-roll bar bushes with Delphi ones and replaced the droplinks. I can't find any movement in the tie-rod ends or rack ends although I'm no expert in that and may not be checking properly.

Has anyone experience or thoughts on what might be the trouble, I'm out of ideas other than condemning the new wishbones for not improving it.

The minor issue is that when cold it's getting very lumpy to drive, with little jerks being felt as driving along at steady speed.

Thanks a lot,
James

p.s. How about a non-Citroen section as some other make-specific forums have?

addo · Post by **addo** » 13 Mar 2010, 21:39

I'm not sure if I can recall you owning a car for a protracted period, that you've been happy with...

Handling - at a guess, possibly overtyred for the rim size, overinflated or tyres of hard/too old compound. Inner rack ends in many modern racks should be tight to a point where they require decent effort to manipulate. Outer ends are the only place many people look, though.

Strut top bushes wear in many cars; this is a spring/strut out job and therefore not the preferred meat of "Quick fit" type workshops. I am assuming the front shocks have been checked, at least by normal methods. Similarly, check your rack mounts and column couplings, whether universals or rag joints.

You'd also do well after confirming the front is in good order, to get a decent alignment front and rear - perhaps look to a place who do proper performance car work, not a tyre shop or boy racer workshop. If they're worth their salt, you'll get a printout showing before and after specs, and they may discuss any bits they couldn't or didn't correct.

p.s. How about a non-Citroen section as some other make-specific forums have?

You could maybe post it in French Car Chat, en Français!

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 13 Mar 2010, 22:15

I don't know if you're trying to hint at a psychological cause for the car's problems, or are noting the bad luck that afflicts some of us. I have a C3 which I've owned for over 4 years that has three knackered injectors. Nothing psychological there, just crap parts on a crap car. Delphi injector repair workshops have confirmed they're poor injectors and sent me photos of the parts that wear away. Later C3s had Bosch systems. Says a lot.

Other cars I've had have been scrappers of 14 years or over, often in very poor condition, given away by the low prices that I can afford, and need lots of work. Each MOT it's £200 and over for them to pass, hence why the cars get scrapped when that amount gets even bigger.

handyman · Post by **handyman** » 14 Mar 2010, 06:28

Assuming after all this replacement of suspension parts, you've had the tracking checked and reset, as it will need resetting?

From the symptoms described, it seems like the tracking is a long way out of adjustment and is probably set too wide so the tyres are tracking out, ie scrubbing the inside of the tyres.

If this is not the cause of the bad handling, I would suggest you get a competent mechanic to look at the car, even if you have to pay a fee, as it sounds like you have a very defective vehicle, and may I add, one that seems like it should not be driven until the problems are confirmed and rectified.

As for a non-Citroen forum on here,

. They do exist elsewhere on the Net, if the content of these other forums are not as good as here, it just shows the mindset of the drivers and owners and why we all drive Citroen!

Handyman

addo · Post by **addo** » 14 Mar 2010, 09:39

James, yes I am fortunate living in a place that never gets particularly cold or violent, but couldn't afford a car at all until I was 27, and purchasing property only happened last year at 38... Hardship is not unfamiliar.

Do some basic checks, then - these are free. Compare the tyre pressures and sizes with the placard on your door or hinge pillar. Set pressures to spec or 2PSI higher on all. Examine the wear patterns on the front tyres. Run your fingertips around the sidewalls lightly to feel for bubbles.

Unlock the steering, and set the wheel to straight ahead; inspect from the front if both road wheels appear to point correctly forward. With engine off and window open - reach in and wiggle the steering wheel whilst observing for wheel movements. Repeat the test with engine idling - for the same amount of wiggle you should see the same amount of movement.

With bonnet up and engine idling, turn the steering from lock to lock while observing the strut tops (you may need to pry off some plastic inspection covers). Pivoting action should be smooth and even. Look for chafing around the tops, if the upper bushings have been worn.

At this time you might also try to observe the steering rack if possible - movement in its mounts can occur if it's rubber bushed.

If you can borrow a pair of jackstands, get the whole front up to slip under then inspect stuff like subframe mounts, and compare wear patterns for parts left to right.

It's also worth having a look at the rear but generally the issues you describe are related to front wheel tracking on a FWD car.

In terms of garages and the like, I am sure that as here, you can find places where the staff have an interest in what they do - this may result in them looking at the car, and working out a program of maintenance to avoid the big hits at MOT time. Competent tradesmen will generally appreciate someone who wants to learn; after all this can result in an understanding owner keeping the mechanic's job more focused and simpler.

Cheers, Adam.

coastline taxis · Post by **coastline taxis** » 14 Mar 2010, 09:39

Your front shockers have gone . Thats why its got no handling. replace shockers and get the tracking checked. Also nothing wrong with citroen cars i wouldthink that by now theres plenty scrappys that will have delphi injectors in for your c3

rmunns · Post by **rmunns** » 14 Mar 2010, 09:51

While this reply won't address your current difficulties, may I suggest you consider doing as I did for maybe 30 years when bringing up family on low money (even though well qualified scientist).

I generally went for cars that were expensive when new, often fairly thirsty, low miles and low number of owners and well maintained. Compared to the 70's/80's/90's there are today so many ways of finding cars for sale so it shouldn't be difficult to find something. There are some really nice cars available at throw-away money.

Give yourself a treat, enjoy luxuries, just be careful to keep your mileage as low as you can and try to drive as efficiently as you can.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 14 Mar 2010, 09:52

i agree with coastline taxis it certainly sounds like knackerd shockers,

regards malcolm