CT to xud11 conversion

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Dommo
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CT to xud11 conversion

Unread post by Dommo »

As mentioned in a topic in the Citroen part of the forum, I'm considering a 2.1TD engine swap..

To quote Jim:
"Doable quite easily Dom :D The CT engine is almost just a petrol version of the 2.1TD... mechanicals are the same although the gearbox is a tad shorter.."

The main worry I have is wiring, for example the clocks, could I leave the current ones in and the needle would only go as far as 5000? Or if I changed the clocks does the current loom plug straight in? Are the RPM sensors and things taken from the same place and in the same way?

Anyone have any clues? Cheers.
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Xaccers
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Unread post by Xaccers »

First, find a 2.1TD Xantia to take for a test drive.
Try not to be too dissapointed/bored.

Then try a 2.1TD XM and see if it's better.

That will give you an idea what donor to go for.
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Unread post by Citroenmad »

Am i right in thinking the different fuel pumps give different performances?

Can 2.1TD not be tweeked to improve performace?
Chris
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Dommo
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Unread post by Dommo »

We test drove a bit of a s**t of a 2.1 today, the engine pulled similarly to my 306 1.9TD which is what I want.

And yes the 2.1 can be tweaked. A lad on the 306 forum has a 2.1 with a bosch pump fitted in his 205 and he says 150hp isn't difficult to get.

So it'll have the peak power of a stock CT engine, but pull much harder from lower RPM, and of course be economical.

If anyone knows whether the dials from a 2.1 and CT engine have the same loom + plug layout that'd be great.

Cheers.
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

With the EPIC pump Chris, no the 2.1TD cannot be tweaked at all, it's completely electronically controlled and "fly by wire" so to do any tweaking at all, the ECU would need to be modified and that's a whole different ball-game.

Dom, the engine will drop straight in, mechanically, no issues. You just need the engine, preferably gearbox (as it's taller geared) and the exhaust system.

Clocks you'll need from a 2.1TD and if you continue to use the EPIC, the ECU and engine harnesses.

If you go Bosch, you'll need to retain the 2.1TD ECU to keep the dash working properly and to keep the glowplug controller happy. Alternatively, you could use a 1.9TD clockset, ECU and engine harness with a Bosch pump.

That's briefly it. Lots more devils in the details...
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Unread post by Citroenmad »

CitroJim wrote:With the EPIC pump Chris, no the 2.1TD cannot be tweaked at all, it's completely electronically controlled and "fly by wire" so to do any tweaking at all, the ECU would need to be modified and that's a whole different ball-game.
So does that mean other pumps can be tweeked? Bosch?
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Both the Bosch and Lucas mechanicals can be tweaked to an extent Chris, general fuelling can be upped and on-boost overfuelling can be too.

Even the semi-electronic Bosch AS3 can be tweaked to good effect.

Makes quite a difference, albeit with a bit more smoke than is perhaps fully desirable.

I don't tweak personally so cannot give specifics...
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Unread post by Citroenmad »

Interesting to know Jim, thanks. Not that ill be tweeking the Xm just yet though :lol:
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Sl4yer
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Unread post by Sl4yer »

Rather than the conversion, why not try chipping (or remapping) the CT? 180bhp should be easy, and although torque won't be up to diesel levels, I'm sure it would make a nice difference. Superchips do one for about £400, and various independants claim to be able to do it for about half that. It's got to be a cheaper and pokier option that swapping a diesel in - I reckon economy could be improved too, but probably not to an acceptable level.

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Dommo
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Unread post by Dommo »

Sl4yer wrote:Rather than the conversion, why not try chipping (or remapping) the CT? 180bhp should be easy, and although torque won't be up to diesel levels, I'm sure it would make a nice difference. Superchips do one for about £400, and various independants claim to be able to do it for about half that. It's got to be a cheaper and pokier option that swapping a diesel in - I reckon economy could be improved too, but probably not to an acceptable level.

James
Unfortunatly that's the problem I have with the Activa, yes it's a cheap car, but it's cheap because it's expensive to run (even when trying your hardest to be economcal) and expensive to maintain. If I could make it cheaper to run and keep on top of maintainance then it's the perfect car in my opinion.
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Unread post by Sl4yer »

Ah, is the problem lack of performance, or cost?

As Gareth found out, Activas could do to be a bit quicker. I find that I don't like to rev mine too hard, partly because I'm used to driving diesels and partly because people sound like knobs when they use all the revs in an urban environment. It's quick enough for me, but I'd really like it a bit quicker.

The economy is the real killer for me. 20mpg isn't really acceptable. But I feel better that if I lived 15 miles from work, rather than 6, it would cost me just as much in an efficient car! When I bought it, I imagined that my partner would do much of her longer-distance motorway journeys in the Activa, and I would use the ZX for work. But she won't drive it! :?

Superchips claim an improvement in output at very low revs for similar engines (such as the Saab LPTs). If the same was true for the CT, economy around town could probably be improved by the mod. But it's an expensive chance, and not one I can afford with a wedding and hopefully a baby arriving rapidly!

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Dommo
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Unread post by Dommo »

Sl4yer wrote:Ah, is the problem lack of performance, or cost?

As Gareth found out, Activas could do to be a bit quicker. I find that I don't like to rev mine too hard, partly because I'm used to driving diesels and partly because people sound like knobs when they use all the revs in an urban environment. It's quick enough for me, but I'd really like it a bit quicker.

The economy is the real killer for me. 20mpg isn't really acceptable. But I feel better that if I lived 15 miles from work, rather than 6, it would cost me just as much in an efficient car! When I bought it, I imagined that my partner would do much of her longer-distance motorway journeys in the Activa, and I would use the ZX for work. But she won't drive it! :?

Superchips claim an improvement in output at very low revs for similar engines (such as the Saab LPTs). If the same was true for the CT, economy around town could probably be improved by the mod. But it's an expensive chance, and not one I can afford with a wedding and hopefully a baby arriving rapidly!

James
To be honest James it's a bit of both. The price you pay because of the poor economy isn't justified by it's lack of performance. My brother was saying that the economy isn't that bad because he's comparing it to his last two cars, one being a 250hp MR2 turbo at around 22 mpg and 1260kg's, the current car being a Honda S2000 at around 240hp, 1300 kgs and 25mpg. It can't be pinned on the fact that it's a heavy car either because there's a maximum of 240kgs in it. Also my parents have a 2000 Saab 93 Aero, 205hp, 32 mpg, not sure on the weight but it can't be far off 1500kgs..? It also has peak torque at something like 2200 rpm, so it's definatly a 'constant torque' sort of engine.

Put simply the CT engine is just a s**t, gutless, thirsty engine at OEM spec. Anyone that says otherwise in my opinion hasn't had experience of other good petrol turbo engines.
Sl4yer
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Unread post by Sl4yer »

Dommo wrote:Put simply the CT engine is just a s**t, gutless, thirsty engine at OEM spec. Anyone that says otherwise in my opinion hasn't had experience of other good petrol turbo engines.
I wouldn't disagree with much of that Dom. That's why I think it needs a chip or remap (or a new turbo if you have the means!).

The SAAB doesn't have improved economy on the urban cycle from the Activa though. My boss's boss's wife has a SAAB 9-3 2.0T, and gets 27mpg overall. That engine is very similar in output to the CT. (And I'm surprised a S2000 weighs so much - thought it was a lightweight sportscar!). It all depends what you use it for. If you're doing lots of miles, it's probably not practical unless you keep to a steady 55-60mph. And let's be honest, that's not what the car is about. Saying than, it's not an Impreza either! I think Jim's description in the buyer's guide sums it up quite well.

I think we need someone with more money than sense (or more availabiliy than sense!) to remap one and see what benefits it brings. Unfortunately replacing leaking rams is more pressing!

James
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davetherave
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Unread post by davetherave »

If you are looking into veg oil Dommo, perhaps consider installing a twin tank system? Thats what i want to do to the prestige!!
It will allow alot easier start up in the cold, and cause the pump less wear i believe!
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XantiaMan
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Unread post by XantiaMan »

Dommo wrote: Put simply the CT engine is just a s**t, gutless, thirsty engine at OEM spec. Anyone that says otherwise in my opinion hasn't had experience of other good petrol turbo engines.
Your wrong, and i have plenty of experience with other turbocharged petrol cars.

Its lack of fuel economy is down to the compression ratio, its old school 8 valve cylinder head, and the weight does play a part. Activas are getting on for 1450kg, thats still heavy by modern standards, and a 1/4 of a ton IS a lot of weight, its more than another engine and gearbox combined!

The Saab engine is much more efficient and modern, because it has a 16 valve head and higher compression ratio. The latter makes a huge difference to the off boost economy. The XU10 engine is almost an antique in comparison.

The fitting of a bigger turbo helped my economy, i still think 400 miles to a tank is acceptable.
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