Mk2 Xantia 1.9TD with a/c auxilary belt running off pulleys

shaunlfc1 · Post by **shaunlfc1** » 10 Jan 2010, 16:59

Hi all,

I have a 98 Mk2 1.9TD (with aircon) Xantia and i've noticed again the auxilary belt (the one that drives the alternator) seems to have jumped a tooth again towards the engine. So as you look at it the right hand edge/tooth of the belt is sitting over the edge of the pulleys and this edge of the belt is slightly fraid.

When the engine is running the belt seems to be running true and I've looked for signs of any of the pulley's it runs on are unbalanced of moving around which might have caused the belt to jump over.

Now the story of this belt starts shortly after we brought the car just over a year ago, at the time of buying it I didnt notice the belt but when I did the first oil change about a week later I noticed the belt was the way it is now jumped over to the right. Once again I inspected it and the trueness of the belt and all seemed fine. So I left it. About 3 months later it was put in a Citroen specialist garage for a new radiator and coolant flush and I asked the garage to take the belt off and reseat it, and check for any problems.

They did the job, and mentioned that they didnt find any issues with the belt or any of pulleys but did say that this is quite common on this engine and its nothing really to worry about.

Thing is now I was changing the light bulbs yesterday in the headlights and noticed the belt had gone back to its "more preferred" position of one tooth over to the right as described above. But this time the belt if slightly fraying and I think perhaps there is a problem.

The fact this belt is very important I want it sorted.

So has anyone had this issue and what is the cure, my first suspicion is the belt on there is the wrong belt as it does look as if its the wrong width, but the car has lots of good service history and although mistakes happen I doubt this could happen!

Thanks for all your help,

Many thanks....

Shaun

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:16

It IS rather important and WORRYING that the belt is moving over..

When the engine is NOT RUNNING, what angle is the Spring Loaded Tensioer at?? Does it look to be at an angle?? Then straighten up when the engine is running??

IF the belt DOES split, the usual problem is the split part dissapears behind the Crank pully, and can jam the belt and cause a MASSIVE disaster!!

It needs sorting AS you know... All I can think of is the spring loaded tensioner is worn, or the belt is too long and cant be tensioned correctly..

do ALL the pullys line up CORRECTLY..??

Paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:30

Welcome to the forum Shaun

As Paul says, this is critical and shame on the garage for not spotting what is a common fault.

It is almost invariably caused by failure of the automatic spring-loaded belt tensioner. The needle roller bearings inside collapse and the first sign they are really bad is the belt running off.

They are a bit tricky to change and that's maybe why the garage passed on it.

Here is how to do it. It's based on the 2.1TD engine but it holds good for the 1.9TD.

Do it, or get it done ASAP. If the belt comes off the news is bad...

shaunlfc1 · Post by **shaunlfc1** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:44

Thank you for the quick response much appreciated and the warm welcome to the forum.

The car is has done 110k miles so I suppose its probably a tensioner change or two.

I am pretty good with a spanner but prefer to work on my Pajero then the Xantia, just find access to everything so much hard work.

So this tensioner that needs changing is it defintly the reason the belt is pulling over?

Is there a PDF service manual download for the Mk2 1.9TD Xantia, I do find the Haynes a bit vague and hard to follow.

Many thanks again,

Shaun

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Jan 2010, 18:56

That tensioner is the usual suspect but there are other less common reasons for the belt to run awry Shaun.

Whilst down there, it is wise to check the eccentric tensioner pulley and more importantly, the dual-mass crank pulley. These do occasionally give trouble in that the outer ring becomes unbonded from the rubber ring and the outer can then drift around a bit, pulling the belt off-course. This again is dangerous as if the crank pulley separates at speed it'll be like a missile in the engine bay.

I have once seen the incorrect alternator cause this. A replacement alternator, if not exactly the right type, may have a different pulley offset. I puzzled for a while wondering why the belt ran three grooves out.

Lastly, check the A/C compressor pulley for alignment although normally if there is a problem here, it complains very loudly indeed!

The spring tensioner may look OK to the eye, it's is only when under load that it goes off at an angle. A good way to check it is to slip the belt off and operate the tensioner by way of the 3/8" square hole. If it feels at all notchy then it's duff.

Xantias are not bad to work on once you get used to them. I agree that some jobs can be shockingly fiddly though.

No PDF manuals I'm afraid as the genuine workshop manuals run to ever so many volumes. Anything you need to know, just ask on here.

Haynes (we call it the BoL - Book of Lies) has its uses and acts as a useful reference and adjunct to information on here at times.

lexi · Post by **lexi** » 10 Jan 2010, 19:05

This most recent thread may have some more info for you. Same car as yours.
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... sc&start=0

Post by **KennyW** » 10 Jan 2010, 22:11

Shaun ,

Here are some pic's of the spring loaded tensioner, the large bolt which secures the tensioner onto the alternator and hydraulic pump bracket,there is a bearing inside which goes and this is usually the cause of the the misalignment as the bearing is collapsing.

Ultimately the belt unwraps itself and can cause other problems.

This happened to me but I luckily caught it in time.

My one is current of the vehcile due to another issue(well documented on the forum)

Kenny

bahouse · Post by **bahouse** » 14 Feb 2010, 09:41

Please help: Could this

MASSIVE disaster

have happened to my ciroen xantia, and is it or not worth repairing since it y reg with 250k mileage, diesel?

The story and please bear with me this is my first post and am not that car technical at all.

The friday evening before last, the fanbelt came off with shredded bits all over the area. The next day it wouldn't start. The RAC engineer insisted that the mechanic check the drivebelt for the shredded bits BEFORE changing the fanbelt and BEFORE starting the car. I gave his report to the mechanic (who 7 MONTHS earlier had changed the fanbelt) who changed the fanbelt without checking for the debris. The NEXT day as I was parking I stalled the car and it wouldn't start. The RAC engineer (a different one from thelast one) couldn't diagnose the fault and could only think of the possibility that I may have used petrol instead of diesel- however on his reoprt to their customer service, he put down "bearing not working properly on the drivebelt", which I was only made aware of when I phone to arrange for towing the car to the mechanic. Anyway the car was towed to a different mechanic who suggested the cambelt may have gone- his colleague didn't think so- and the engine head may have been affected, before he quoted at least £600/700 for repairs (others quoted up to £1500). I must stress the mechanic didn't open anything to check but just by listening to the rattling noise from the engine head.

I am thinking of not repairing it if the quotes above is what it would cost me, unless someone here believe, like the mechanic's colleage, that the cambelt is not affected and therefore the problem may not be that serious; but then the "MASSIVE disaster" caught my eye and I fear this may be the case.

Sorry for the long post, but couldn't explain it otherwise.

PLEASE note, I am completely cars ILLITERATE and your help will be very much appreciated.

bahouse

bahouse · Post by **bahouse** » 14 Feb 2010, 09:53

Forgot to add, the tensioner was also changed at the same time the fanbelt was changed, following advice from the car parts shop who also suggested to look at the air con for another possibility as to why the fanbelt came off. In fact the air con works on off, as it wishes.

Thanks

Post by **CitroJim** » 14 Feb 2010, 16:47

Hi Bahouse and welcome.

Sorry to hear of what happened

The duff tensioner is easy to miss unless you know what you are looking for...

Generally, if the auxillary (fan) belt comes off and shred violently than it often does cause cambelt damage sooner or later due to bit sof belt and casing getting tangled up in it.

You do not say what engine you have but as it's a Y plate, I guess it will be an HDi. In which case, if it is, a cambelt failure does not cause tremendous harm, usually breaking a few rockers. These are easy enough to replace and I would have thought the bill would be substantially less than you have been quoted.

The earlier 1.9TD engine is a very different kettle of fish and can be very expensive to repair after cambelt problems as often the camshaft snaps and takes the head with it...

You need a proper diagnosis on what the problem really is from a skilled party who has no vested interest before deciding what to do next. It will not be a difficult one to diagnose...

Post by **myglaren** » 14 Feb 2010, 16:58

CitroJim wrote:

You need a proper diagnosis on what the problem really is from a skilled party who has no vested interest before deciding what to do next. It will not be a difficult one to diagnose...

Welcome, Bahouse!

If you post your approximate location and specify the model of your Xantia then one of our members in your area may offer to have a look at it for you.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 14 Feb 2010, 21:20

This Aux problem I think is rare on the HDi, as the Newer re-designed tensioner was used, that doesn't seem to suffer the "leaning" problem..

If the engine is an XUD older 1.9 td, then it only needs to be ONE tooth out, she will start but be VERY noisy and rattley.. they can survive one tooth out..

If the cam shaft has broke, firstly finding out if any valves have bent is first priority, if no valves have bent then theres a good chance of being able to replace the cam shaft and cap bearings... however, these are a matched machined set, but can be matched with a replacment set... dont bother going to citroen, I dont think they sell them seperatly.. you'd need a good mechanic who could match it all up..

Theres only 3 cap bearings, so depending which valves have hit decides which cap has broke.. HOWEVER, from the sounds of it, if shes running, but with lots of noise, it sounds like shes survived any breakage, and a Timing belt replacement and re-time should sort that part out.

Paul

bahouse · Post by **bahouse** » 15 Feb 2010, 13:03

HI CitroJim, myglaren, citroenxm,

Many thanks for your warm welcome and helpful advice, and sorry for the late reply- I had some guests overnight, the man being a mechanic, with no tools obviously.

CitroJim: “Generally, if the auxillary (fan) belt comes off and shred violently than it often does cause cambelt damage sooner or later due to bit sof belt and casing getting tangled up in it.”

CitroJim,

The fanbelt wasn’t shredded badly but you could see shredded bits over the are-but the one changed 7 months ago was badly shredded, could these old bits have cause the latest problem?

Yes, the engine (DW10ATED) is 2.0 HDI SX turbo diesel, y reg, my apologies for not included it earlier.

The guest mechanic looked at the car yesterday, but because the battery was flat couldn’t really tell much. However he did say the cambelt was ok- he checked it from the hole where you pour in the oil and by using Easy Start, and engine responded a little but car wouldn’t start.

“You do not say what engine you have but as it's a Y plate, I guess it will be an HDi. In which case, if it is, a cambelt failure does not cause tremendous harm, usually breaking a few rockers. These are easy enough to replace and I would have thought the bill would be substantially less than you have been quoted.”

I am glad you say the cambelt doesn’t cause tremendous damage, because I feared the worst. Please, what do you mean by rockers, the same as the valves? And what would be the cost, do you recon? I am very trusting person and I could easily be fooled especially as I know nothing about cars, or repairs.

I am waiting for my friend to get me his car battery this afternoon, and will let all you know of the result.

Thanks again.

Regards

bahouse

bahouse · Post by **bahouse** » 15 Feb 2010, 13:05

Citroenxm: “If the engine is an XUD older 1.9 td, then it only needs to be ONE tooth out, she will start but be VERY noisy and rattley.. they can survive one tooth out.. “

Citroenxm,

The engine is HDI, y reg. When it refused to start the first time, the car was indeed very noisy and rattley (coming from the engine head, if I recall correctly). Now because of the battery being flat, there is hardly any noise.

“If the cam shaft has broke, firstly finding out if any valves have bent is first priority, if no valves have bent then theres a good chance of being able to replace the cam shaft and cap bearings...”

One mechanic suspected the valves may have bent/broken, but he says until he opens the engine head he couldn’t tell- but his boss, who is also a mechanic scared me by quoting me at least £600/700 saying the cambelt and the engine head have gone, yet his mechanic didn’t think the cambelt was affected, just as my mechanic guest thought.

“HOWEVER, from the sounds of it, if shes running, but with lots of noise, it sounds like shes survived any breakage, and a Timing belt replacement and re-time should sort that part out.”

She is not running now, but my mechanic guest suspect because the battery being flat. He advised getting the battery charged (which I tried with jump start kit with no success) and if it fails to start and drive, then it could be an electrical/electronic fault.

Thanks again.

Regards

bahouse

bahouse · Post by **bahouse** » 15 Feb 2010, 13:10

Myglaren: ”If you post your approximate location and specify the model of your Xantia then one of our members in your area may offer to have a look at it for you.”

Thanks a lot Myglaren,

I live in London, Lewisham, se13 7ud. my tel, 07828904074. and the car is xantia 2.0 hdi turbo diesel, y reg.

Forum like this save people a lot of money, time and aggro.

To give an example: Once the same car would stall or not start for few minutes after I’ve parked it. A citroen dealer on the phone quoted me £85+ Vat per hour just to diagnose the fault then plus cost & labour. I said given that with the computer diagnostic it shouldn’t take that long, before adding that I would be prepared to pay for ½ hour diagnostic test, not more. They agreed. But when I took the car, before even looking at the car, they quoted me 2 hours manual diagnostic cost, ie £170 + Vat, PLUS parts & labour, saying “the mechanic believes the fault cannot be diagnosed with the computer”. An RAC mechanic suggested I change the relay, which I did at the cost of £5, second hand of course. And the car never stopped since, until this time for a different problem.

Thanks again.

Regards

bahouse

French Car Forum

Mk2 Xantia 1.9TD with a/c auxilary belt running off pulleys

Mk2 Xantia 1.9TD with a/c auxilary belt running off pulleys

Citroenxm “and can jam the belt and cause a MASSIVE disaster