Xantia and BX hydraulics

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 30 Apr 2003, 02:26

What sort of major differences are there between the Xantia and BX hydralics. My current experience with Xantias are taking the front off and changing the wheels. Ive driven one and thats it, everything i know about Xantias in a nut shell.
Im transfering a 1.9TD engine from a p-reg xantia estate (with all other parts available for spares) into an F-reg 19rd BX. So far it seems i need to transfer the lump and some of the wiring. The gearbox will come from the BX (thus maintainng the same final drive and driveshafts, struts etc). The exhaust will also need fidling to get onto the BX.
I assume that the donor will have anti sink, which im not interested in. The Xantia also has a different pump which i believe to have seperate output for power steerign rack. Can i make use of this?
Im not worried about the electrical side of things, i know the BX wiring inside out (litterally, i have a spare loom

). The only thing im concerned about is the pre and post heat system for the glow plugs. How much difference will the post heat make? can i do away with it?
Do i need to transfer the diesel fuel pump? I believe that diesels only have an engine mounted pump (ie the injector pump) and doesnt need a pump in the fuel tank (the way a 8v GTi does)?
What else am i missing?
Im also planning on uprating to vented brakes (16v BX style), assuming funds allow. Any body done this? is it as simple as it looks? Are the EBC green stuff pads any use for general driving or will i eat through them instantly?
Just been to halfords (i know im a sinner) and got the Haynes 'manual' to start finding these things out. Im gonna be doing the job in three weeks so answers on a post card!!

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 30 Apr 2003, 03:47

Vanny
As far as i know none of the Citroen diesels have a separate fuel lift pump so there is no need to worry about this. I would have thought that the injection pump must go with the engine and if you use your non turbo one on the turbo engine it will behave as a non- turbo.
You will need to improve the cooling radiator. The radiator in my TD is the largest I have ever seen (including 4.2 XJ6) and is presumably there for a purpose.
As you know the BX intercooler was mounted on top of the engine (probably because there was no-where else) The TD bonnet has a wonderful lining which channels cool fresh air over the intercooler. this is an additional matter you will have to deal with especially as I think your Xantia will have a front mounted intercooler.
I'm not sure i understand your concern over the brakes. the 8 valve GTi was very nearly as fast as the 16 valve with better torque characteristics and ran on unventilated discs. The TD has the same system and I have never overheated mine. A 1.9 TD has very little power more than the 1.7 and a damn sight less than an 8 valve GTi so I would have thought that there was no problem at all. It is also interesting that amongst the numerous topics of discussion on this and other boards, brake fade is not one. have a look at the spare parts catalogue on the japanese site3 and cross reference the parts. I think that 16 valves simply use wider ventilated discs with a wider caliper and the same pads (as the 14!).
The Xantia pump has separate outlets for the steering and the brakes/suspension. The arrangement was changed for some reason (to improve the steering?) - can't you fit your BX pump or is it knackered?
When is this beast going to hit the roads?
jeremy

karel lucas · Unread post by **karel lucas** » 30 Apr 2003, 05:19

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jeremy</i>

The Xantia pump has separate outlets for the steering and the brakes/suspension. The arrangement was changed for some reason (to improve the steering?) - can't you fit your BX pump or is it knackered?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The BX 19 atmosferic diesels after 1992 with power steering were fitted with this two-outlet pump as well; the same principle as the Xantia. The same holds for only a few turbodiesels at the end of production. Chances are little to find one like that.
You don't need the extra regulation block for adjusting the flow for powersteering and supsension/brake systems. The steering takes most of the flow, under normal circumstances.

Karel

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 30 Apr 2003, 05:43

Hopefully not because of high speeds (yeah right, in a 1.9d with a knackered 2nd cylinder) but i already get brake fade. Came down the old horse shoe pass a year and a half ago (almost vertical road in northwales without enough room for one car, i got lost and dont think i could ever find it again, the sheep seemed confused by a car), and got back to the bottom in a cloud of smoke, discs totally cooked, and had been in no greater than second all the way down. Having been on the track with a 16v racer a few weekends ago i KNOW the difference between vented with EBC green stuff pads, and non vented with Bendix pads. I swear you could endo the 16v!
Im gonna make sure to instal the twin fans, and ovehaul the coolant system (in order to make totally sure its been well tested).
The BX pump is good (well for 115000 it works!) but the pump on the TD runs from an accesory belt on the RHS of the engine next to the alternator, it may be difficult to get a suitable length belt to do just the alternator, it may also cause problems if i install the air con system (from end crash on the Xantia but the air con is still totally sealed!!).
thnaks
Vanny

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 30 Apr 2003, 14:58

I hadn't appreciated that the Xantia pump wasn't driven off the camshaft. Driving it off a crankshaft pulley (with aircon as well) may cause space problems, having fond memories of trying to get the alternator out of my non-aircon TD in the middle of a campsite and ending up having to remove the hydraulic feed pipe and loosen the radiator after much head scratching just to get it past the rad.
The vented 16 valve discs are listed for some xantias as well but I see that 16 V calipers are not.
I'll watch out for fade now - never felt any on the BX - clearly remember it on my XJ6 even without a trailer. (Currently on Delphi pads. Delphi pads in wife's ZX D smell horrible and I must change the discs to see if that makes any difference.)
jeremy

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 30 Apr 2003, 15:38

Vanny, is there any way to hybridise your new engine with the camshaft and sundry bits of the old one? Aircon is going to be a pain to get and I think that you may want to forget it.

Unread post by **Jon** » 30 Apr 2003, 16:24

Surely the easy way out is to obtain an earlier Xantia TD (6 piston) pump? Those pumps have one metal one rubber pipe so you could connect straight from the pump to the BX flow valve.
4007S7 is a 6 piston 1 metal/1 rubber pipe pump that will do Xantia TD with or without aircon. Should solve the problem!
[:)]
As for the brakes well a standard BX 1.7TD had 90bhp and made do with sold discs. The 1.9TD is only 2hp more at 92BHP.
If you want to upgrade the easy way is to fit BX 16V front calipers and BX16v (same as Xantia hatch) vented discs. If you want to go for it in a big way I've seen Xantia 16v/Estate discs and calipers put on a BX 16v before now, downside is that you would need to use 15" wheels.
Last, but not least my other suggestion is that you try and get yourself a BX 17Td gearbox, clutch and flywheel, clutch cable plus driveshafts. I am not convinced that the BX19D Box is up to it. If you do want to stick with it, you'd have to use the BX 19D flywheel and clutch on the Xantia engine. Lets just say that I don't give the clutch long though!!!! Much better to use a BX TD clutch which is much stronger.
Hope that this helps (I've probably depressed you now with the thought of all this extra work)[;)]
Wobs

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 30 Apr 2003, 17:06

No, not depressed, thats the whole point of asking around here, lots more experience with the xantias!!
As i understand it the pump can be connected up by removing the FD, connecting one pump output to the PAS and the other to the accumulator. Which removes the complexity of the FD. The piping from the Xantia should be melaeble enough to transfer over and thus leave the pump where it is.
As noted, the 8v GTi discs are solid (which i hadnt noticed), so a 16v set of calipers will be used. Im planning on doing a lot of towing with the new monster, so it has to be worth uprating the discs since ive seen them over heat more than once (although probably in part due to knackered hand brake cables and sticking calipers).
Ive lookad at the brakes on the estate and really dont fancy that. Would have to change the struts and alsorts of other bits which just aint worth the effort.
As for the gear box, thats something ill have to look into. I currently have an XU30 gearbox which i believe to be the same as the 1.7TD box. There is deffinatley a difference between the current box and the original, ratios are smoother and has a higer top speed (from 98 to 106). The clutch that is currently in the 19d is a remanufactured cheap as chips clutch, but doesnt seem to have any sort of problems, still it certainly wont be upto the 19TD. Im much more tempted to put the Xantia box in, but not sure about the clutch actuator. Apparently the xantia is push while the BX is pull (or the other way around). Would it possible to simply unbolt the bell housing on the Xantia and BX and swap them? thus changing the gearbox, but not the clutch actuation?
With the cost of the engine and new belts and oils etc i dont really have the pennies to go buying up new pumps or 1.7td lumps so i need to use what i have i guess
thanks for thoughts
Vanny

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 30 Apr 2003, 17:19

Good luck with the 1.9 turbodiesel project. I agree that the TD box is a must but I would rebuild your calipers to avoid the brake fade that besets your Cit and stick to the standard stoppers. It will save you time and money.

Unread post by **Jon** » 30 Apr 2003, 17:50

Going back to the g/box/clutch situation, why not consider using the Xantia box?
I've had a quick look, and theres going to be 2 problems, driveshafts and clutch.
BX 19D shafts: LH length 630, RH length 870.
Xantia TD shafts LH length 640 RH length 840.
You're gonna need to work out where the xantia loses its length, if you see what I mean.
I thought about BX Td shafts as a solution, but they are 620 LH or 870 RH.
You could probably get away with BX shafts in the Xantia box, but you must measure the length of the splines (g/box end), and the amount of splines (plus of coures the diameter of the shaft at the g/box splined end) comparing your BX shafts to the Xantia ones b4 you proceed.
As regards the clutch, I reckon use the Xantia TD cable (togther with the g/box and clutch),as the length is similar to the BX one, and find some means of attaching it to the BX pedal, thus giving you a Pull clutch............
Mr Burns may have some thoughts on the above, I was just sort of thinking outloud when I wrote this.
As I said b4, the BX TD box, clutch, cable shafts and flywheel would be the neatest solution, surely you can pick up a blown up or damaged BXTD for the donor bits for next to nought???

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 30 Apr 2003, 19:22

The difference in length of the Xantia shafts seemed to be down to the struts, but if the xantias total is less then i assume the box sits slightly differently, something to examine. What we have found is some Xantia saloon are fitted with ABS shafts but dont have ABS, and the shafts on the estate Xantia are much fatter than the ones on the saloon. Im fairly sure we found that the sline ends and number of sticky out bits are compatible, that is a 16v bx shaft will fit the xantia saloon (although different lengths).
Thanks for the info on the shaft length, could be VERY useful, we are gonna try putting the Xantia struts onto the 16v racer (in a round about manner) as they are an inch shorter between shaft and wish bone.
Id prefer to use the Xantia clutch in all honesty, the only major difference seems to be the clutch plate being slightly larger so im guessing the fly wheel will accomodate this as well. May speak to my engineer friend and see if the fly wheel can be significantly lightened.
Flicking through the haynes it would seem that the Xantia clutch is hydraulic actuated, rather than direct cable. GULP! But then turning the page the bell housing and clutch fork looks the same as that on later BX's, most notably the race car, so i think worries are over on that matter, just wish i had the car to hand!! But then you read a bit further and there are both types, guess which im praying for!!

Unread post by **Jon** » 30 Apr 2003, 19:42

Vanny, re hydraulic clutch, thats bollox.Xantia TD >RP7973 had a normal, manually adjustable cable, after that RP they have an auto adjust cable. No hydraulics involved at all.
Whatever cable is fitted, the clutch kit is the same, its what we call a pull clutch, and the release bearing is mounted on the cover plate, not the input shaft.
Wobs

Unread post by **RichardW** » 30 Apr 2003, 20:24

Hydraulic clutch on 2.1TD and HDI IIRC - think they had cable operated 'boxes as well.
How big a shoe horn is Vanny going to need do you reckon Jon?
I look forward to hearing the progress (oh yes, I believe the yells of anguish will be audible from 200 miles away), and seeing the pics of finished article. Bantia anybody?
And there was I wondering if I could get an HDi engine in an Activa.....
Richard

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 30 Apr 2003, 23:25

very very good news on the engine front. It would seem that for a start the box is cable operated, but more importantly it looks the same as the box on the race car. Thus conversion to BX spec shouldnt be a problem, thats one less thing to worry about.
The hydraulics seem pretty simple, may invest in the pleidies tool and have lots of fun with the ole repiping effort. Assuming i dispence with the AC and thus the pump everything should work out nice. I think i have my hands on a above engine intercooler if worst comes tot he worst, and now so called 'friends' are suggesting an intercooler spray to keep the temp right down, maybe a modification to the AC unit is in order. Only other problem seems to be drive shaft lengths, but i think i know a man who can custom build them

I have two engine hoists and a load of pullys, i reckon i can stick one on the engine and one on the body and pull the engine into the shell if worst comes to worst. Otherwise its off with the sub frame!!