Boing went Xantia - usual pooped sphere situation

ihatecars · Post by **ihatecars** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:00

My Xantia 1.8 8V (Dimension - has anti-sink) 112k miles '95 has got that rock hard and bouncy suspension problem which I gather is a sphere replacement job. This car has always had a hard ride, way too hard, tres uncomfortable in fact and I took it back to the main dealer from where I bought it, who said after checking everything, it was fine, but it was horrible.

The static loading system worked fine, put in heavy weight and the system levelled itself correctly.

After that I found a garage that could fit "softer" spheres, which in fact after £250 for the job made very little difference to the ride. I abandoned making any further changes but now after a few years it seems like the ones they fitted have expired or at least something has.

So I need to know what can give me a soft ride, I know the standard spheres are just too hard. The ones currently in the front have written on them: XT AV SP857 2.OI 55Bar 05/03 - there was a chart on the 'net somewhere that listed them all (incl pressures), anyone know where that went?

My questions are, when I replace the spheres what can I get for a soft ride and anyone know of a suitably skilled/equipped garage in easy reach of Gloucester?

thanks

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:20

Thats very odd, fitting new spheres should give a very good ride, and a standard Xantia with new spheres is not hard. What make were the spheres you had fitted? Genuine? Ive heard of aftermarket spheres going pop almost straight away, obviously giving a poor ride, as it only has the tyres for springs.

Usually spheres should be regassed or checked for pressure every 3 years. Id be looking for somewhere who can regas and pressure test your spheres to see whats going on.

LHM probably needs flushing and changing if thats not right, height correctors should be lubricated fairly often and you should ideally play with the cars height every few weeks as this can help things seizing.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:27

You can get 'comfort' spheres for the XM from GSF, I have them on mine, dont know if they do them for the Xantia. If yours is hydractive you can fit non hydractive spheres which should give you a very comfortable ride but not very fast cornering, would suit me but not everyone.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:31

You can get Xantia comfort spheres Peter, and i think fitting BX spheres also makes it softer. Though a dimension Xantia wont be hydractive.

A normal Xantia rides well, so something is not quite right with yours if its really harsh. It should be better than a normal car?

deian · Post by **deian** » 01 Nov 2009, 15:38

Basics first, are your tyres at exactly the right pressures, and is the tread on your car within the limit? I'm not asking this for the legal purposes, but the whole hydro-pneumatic system is designed around the wheels/tyres being in good condition and within specification.

After a few years spehere will probably need changing. Do you drive over rough surfaces quite often?

Do some citrobiotics to eliminate any air from the system, air is not good in a hydraulic system.

If you still think the car is hard after fitting new spheres, then your next port of call would be to check your LHM fluid is clean! If you feel it's not the nice bright lime green it should be then you need to "hydraflush" it for 1000miles.

If it's still hard after this then you need to check that the height correctors are working correctly and that the clamp onto which the plastic clip clips onto is tightened around the anti-roll bars at the right place, this is a very sensitive adjustment to do and the system can take time to react after the tiniest adjustment.

I think i've covered all the basics. You are driving with the height lever at the right position and not the intermediate one right?

Failing all that, take the car back to get new spheres done and make sure the new ones you get are brand new (i.e not painted in gloss paint), the matt type of painted sphere is more likely to be a brand new one than one that has a gloss finish. That is just my experience of 'buying' spheres so far.

There shouldn't be any need to fit softer spheres really, if you feel you needed these then there must have been something else wrong. Fitting softer sphere would compromise handling for comfort.

Above all get the exact sphere for your car. I can't remember the better brands now, but one is called Alko (? - someone correct me if i got it wrong).

Hope that helps.

You say you

Post by **myglaren** » 01 Nov 2009, 16:08

Also have a look through this thread.

If you do undertake any repairs or maintenance yourself then it can't be stressed to highly or repeated too often that you should never go under the car without it being securely supported on axle stands or ramps as the car can drop very suddenly and without any warning and will squish you dead.

Pleiades · Post by **Pleiades** » 01 Nov 2009, 16:26

I often get people in to me asking about softer type spheres, the way I allways do it is to fit the correct ones, they allways comment on how fantastic the car is after the sphere change.

The problem is that a lot of people simply have not experienced the ride of a car with decent spheres on and after reading web pages of softer sphere suggestions, of course they think that this is the way to go, when in fact all they need is the correct ones on the car.

Next of course, you state that the car was done a few years back, well as a rule of thumb (and it's near on spot on) with normal use the spheres on a Xantia will lose the pressure at the rate of approx 10 bar per year on the fronts and a little less on the rears. The fronts start with 55 bar and the rears with 30 bar.

To keep the car running smooth, sphere changes should be done at about 2 and a half to 3 year intervalls.

Proper spheres are important too, there are lots out there on the market and some are even re-charged being sold as new, we took a set off from a customers Xantia only last week and found that although they had markings on them saying Xantia front, the fronts were 1 x BX rear and 1 x XM front, the rear spheres stated Xantia rear but were both in fact Xantia fronts. To some people a sphere is a sphere and the only difference is the pressure, they just pick a pair the correct size and charge the the appropriate pressure then lable them.

£250 a few years back does seem a tadd on the expensive side?? At the moment we are charging £25 + vat per sphere fitted.

Pop the car into a decent local workshop, there must be someone near you that understands the hydraulics, as most dealers will plug the computor on and if the screen says no faults found, thats the answer you will get! You dont need the computor, just experience will do.

Failing that, fit them yourself, it's not that bad a job.

Regards
Martin.

ihatecars · Post by **ihatecars** » 01 Nov 2009, 16:39

Thanks for the suggestions boys, the car always rode hard and bounced much worse than any other vehicle I've ever owned. Needless to say I was not pleased with the main Citroen dealer from which I bought the car. But at my request they did swap the spheres (gen Cit parts) check the LHM many times, greased the height valves. I also went to another Cit dealer and went through the same thing (except sphere exchange). And another independant Cit garage (2 off) still vile ride and £££ lighter.

I did think about getting rid/lose money as the ride was bad, gave me neck ache with all the bouncing, although it did seem reasonable when the vehicle was loaded up in weight. I was spoilt by having a 2.0i SX a year older (L reg) that had a fab ride and I was expecting the same.

Interestingly, the tyre condition/manufacturer issue was raised by a dealer onetime.

deian · Post by **deian** » 01 Nov 2009, 19:48

The tyre CAN be an issue, although it shouldn't matter THAT much, the car is designed to run on a specific michelin tyre (can't remember what model tyre), and they still manufacture it, could be 'energy' or something.

I wouldn't take it to Citroen to get it done, independent experts are so much better, they deal with the same 'type' of cars i.e older hydraulic citroens, if you can get yourelf to Martin's place at Pleaides then he will probably know much more than any citroen trained monkey, he certainly talks a lot of sense on the subject on this forum. It would be worth the money travelling to him rather than wasting it at Citroen.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 01 Nov 2009, 20:04

There is no way that the car should 'bounce' if the spheres are good. It sounds as though its hitting the bump stops. Is it riding at the correct height, can you bounce each corner 4-6" with the engine running?

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 01 Nov 2009, 20:12

Hmmmm ARE WE MISSING THE OBVIOUS!

If the car has always been a bit hard and bouncing then WHAT ABOUT REAR ARM BEARINGS????

And I prooved this to myself with my old girl.. She had a full set of spheres, fitted by me, when the previous owner had her.. and it was better! However, the failing bearings then shone through, so when I aquired her, I fitted a new set of bearings, and WHAT A MASSIVE difference, the rears were proper "Normal" spheres for a NON Hydractive car, with anti sink, and now when you lean on the rear, it goes right down to the bump stops, and of course if you sit on the boot lip, right down then back up .. it made the rear SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO soft! I couldn't beleve it!

It doesn't need a car to be HARD on the back for long for the rear arm bearings to destroy them selfs!

Paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 01 Nov 2009, 20:49

That's a good point Paul and stiff front struts too will have an effect. A bit of lube on them can make all the difference. The front struts are the only hydraulic components not lubricated by their own leakage.

The other major thing, as said, is to carefully check ride heights and ensure the height correctors are working absolutely perfectly. Ride height and comfort go hand-in -hand and it's more critical than it might first appear.

If this was a hydractive Xantia there would be other things to consider but in this case I'm assuming the car is non-hydractive.

ihatecars · Post by **ihatecars** » 02 Nov 2009, 08:26

Once again many thanks for the good suggestions. Two that hit me. The height level, I found the 3/4 height setting wasn't right, the car seemed to go to virtually full height. I explained to the garage how my older SX would settle nicely at 3/4 height but this car seems not to (I did a pile of measurements and recorded them boffin style). I thought this might be a clue, but got that "lube the height valves" routine.

Hitting the bump stops came up too, but am told the ride height is correct, it seems OK just looking at the vehicle.

Some non-active part being wonky, yes I wondered about that too but as I don't know enough about these vehicles, needle/haystack.

I guess my worry is, that I get all the spheres and LHM replaced (£££) and I just get back my hard pogo ride. I think deep down I feel once the "right man" takes a look all will be revealed.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 02 Nov 2009, 10:12

Were are you located, prehaps one of us on here could be close to you to give you an EXPERT examination on the car!!??

Paul

Old-Guy · Post by **Old-Guy** » 02 Nov 2009, 15:15

Both the GSF sphere table and ride height data are on my Xantia web page.

I drive a wide variety of other vehicles - mostly vans - and I can vouch for the fact that a Xantia with good suspension has a more comfortable ride than almost anything else. The principle reason that we bought one!

I think you're labouring under a mis-understanding. The gas in each suspension sphere is the spring, while the LHM acts as a variable length strut between 'spring' and hub. So, even when a suspension sphere is completely 'blown' (no gas in it at all), provided that the height control valve for that 'axle' is working properly, the ride height will still be correct BUT with no 'spring' the suspension (for that wheel) will be absolutely solid. By the same token, the suspension will still go up and down as expected.

I'm sure that what you describe is blown suspension spheres. The easy check is to get someone to 'bounce' each corner of the car hard while you watch the position of the tyre relative to the wheel-arch. If the tyre doesn't move several inches up and down, the sphere needs replacing!