More Xantia 2.1td advice required please

[timbo101]

Hi all again,

Thanks to the very kind offers of help from FCF members and the huge amount of help offered by Mike to help with the repairs I am getting closer to getting my Xantia back on the road but would just like a bit of info or advice first please before we get stuck in and I buy the parts etc.
I am sure you all know that I have just spent over £600 getting my xantia all up together and with a shiny new mot only for it to breakdown on me again.
The evening I bought it back from the MOT the auxillary belt shredded again which is the 3rd one in under a year and when it went this time the car now sounds lumpy and very tappity which we seemto think is due to the timing belt being moved from its correct position after the aux belt went again.
Just want to run the parts I may need past you first to make sure I am going the right way.
Firstly the auxillary belt keeps running off to the side hence it starts to shred on one edge which obviously means one of the pulleys is not in true line. I thought it would be the tensioner pulley but when I had the mobile mechanic out a couple of weeks ago he looked at all the pulleys and told me that it is the guide pulley that has play in it so does that make sense? As if so GSF have one in stock for about £45 but dont want to get it if its the wrong one.
Also I had my cambelt replaced by a garage last year with a new water pump etc so will I just need to buy the timing belt on its ownto be replaced or do I need to buy other bits to go with it?
Lastly if it is the timing belt that has shifted does this mean it may have damaged a tooth etc on the Crankshaft wheel or toothed cog that it goes round(sorry if thats not what it is called but you should know what I mean) so do I need to get one of those or are they expensive or difficult to replace or should we inspect it first etc etc.
If people could let me know thier thoughts a.s.a.p please that would be great as want to arrange parts and get my much missed old girl back on the road.
Thanks again..Tim

[deian]

Hi all again,

Thanks to the very kind offers of help from FCF members and the huge amount of help offered by Mike to help with the repairs I am getting closer to getting my Xantia back on the road but would just like a bit of info or advice first please before we get stuck in and I buy the parts etc.
I am sure you all know that I have just spent over £600 getting my xantia all up together and with a shiny new mot only for it to breakdown on me again.
The evening I bought it back from the MOT the auxillary belt shredded again which is the 3rd one in under a year and when it went this time the car now sounds lumpy and very tappity which we seemto think is due to the timing belt being moved from its correct position after the aux belt went again.
Just want to run the parts I may need past you first to make sure I am going the right way.
Firstly the auxillary belt keeps running off to the side hence it starts to shred on one edge which obviously means one of the pulleys is not in true line. I thought it would be the tensioner pulley but when I had the mobile mechanic out a couple of weeks ago he looked at all the pulleys and told me that it is the guide pulley that has play in it so does that make sense? As if so GSF have one in stock for about £45 but dont want to get it if its the wrong one.
Also I had my cambelt replaced by a garage last year with a new water pump etc so will I just need to buy the timing belt on its ownto be replaced or do I need to buy other bits to go with it?
Lastly if it is the timing belt that has shifted does this mean it may have damaged a tooth etc on the Crankshaft wheel or toothed cog that it goes round(sorry if thats not what it is called but you should know what I mean) so do I need to get one of those or are they expensive or difficult to replace or should we inspect it first etc etc.
If people could let me know thier thoughts a.s.a.p please that would be great as want to arrange parts and get my much missed old girl back on the road.
Thanks again..Tim

The guide pulley being dodgy would probably cause the aux belt to slip off and shred. It is there to keep the belt straight, the other one is obviously the tensioner. I would think you can buy a kit from GSF that has the belt and both tensioner and guide pulleys. Not sure if it's the one you saw for £45, someone else can confirm this.

There is a certain way to place both pulleys on the engine, if this isn't done correctly, then the pulleys won't do their job well enough. Also check that anything else being driven by the aux belt (such as hydraulic pump, air con pump, alternator) aren't throwing the belt off beyond what the guide pulley/tensioner can achieve. If for example the alternator is not mounted on 'square' to the belt it will throw it off line.

The timing belt alone will do if you had the tensioner and water pump done, but while the belt is off, just have a play with the tensioner yourself, feel for the tension it's supposed to give and also some side to side play.

The belt having shifted would not mean one of the teeth would be broken on the cogs (crankshaft or camshaft, the teeth are metal, the belt is rubber reinforced with metal wire. It is highly unlikely. What could be more likely is that one of the cogs/spindles that the belt goes around was stiff at some point, again, while the belt it off turn all the cogs and feel for undue tension. If you can take out the glow plugs it will be easier to turn the engine (top and bottom) as the compression won't be there. Remember to reset the timing again if you do decide to turn the engine.

Thats all I can say for now. Good luck.

[Peter.N.]

Hi Tim

The 'tappety' noise you can hear may well be the pistons hitting the valves so I wouldn't run it like that for long! As it still runs its probably survived the experience OK, the belt has probably jumped a tooth on the crankshaft sprocket so I would get it fixed as soon as possible.

If the water pump has been changed I wouldn't think that would want doing again, in nearly 15 years of XM 2.1 ownership I have never had to change a tensioner or idler they seem to be very durable, just give them a spin, if they sound and feel OK I wouldn't bother replacing them.

You obviously have something wrong with your auxilluary belt set up though, I would get that sorted or you may not be so lucky next time.

Peter

[CitroJim]

Yes, do carefully check the spring tensioner Tim and also check the crank pulley. 2.1TDs give them a hard time and if not replaced properly when the cambelt is done, they can work loose and end up wobbling on the end of the crank. This'll throw the belt off. Check the centre crank bolt is dead tight, wou can't "wobble" it and that the rubber is intact. Scribe a paint line across the pulley and when you next run the engine, look at the pulley and check it is running dead true and that the paint line is not indicating the outer has come unbonded from the inner half.

Do, before attempting to start again, check the cambelt timing. It must be exactly right. Also, do check the tensioner is adjusted properly and reset it if necessary. As Peter says, they rarely fail but must be adjusted properly.

These threads may help:

2.1TD Cambelt Replacement

2.1TD Aux. belt replacement

I doubt too much damage has been done. If the pistons do kiss the valves, being perpendicular, the worst that usually happens is a broken rocker or two and they're not hard to replace.

Good luck Tim, I hope for a good resolution to this one

[citroenxm]

If the Aux belt keeps running off, Id check the condition of the Auto Tensioner, and spring unit, if the needle rollers in it have collapsed you wont see it untill you watch its position WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING!

You may see it shifting to an angle on the aux belt, causing it to shred it.. you can only see its angle when the engine is running, then as said, if the belt has gone behind the crank pully which is what it does 9.5 times out of ten, it traps the belt by the bottom cog, causing it to jump..

The GOOD news with the 2.1 it is only breaks rocker fingers AT WORSE! on the 1.9 8v TD units, it can bend valves, which of course is head off job!

Hope you get sorted !

Paul

[MikeT]

I hope Tim doesn't mind me stealing his thunder but I have to let this out - it was the aux belt spring tensioner - very visibly pizzed!

Unfortunately, I can't work quickly and as I have no experience of 2.1's worked even slower and we ended up playing the game of hunt the spring mounts! We all lost and I had to put an emergency call in to a man (who was just lining up a V6 with another forum member and even commented on the (bad) timing of whos's mobile will ring ) - our Citrojim who kindly wrote the guides I'd printed off and took with me. Two guides and one BoL and I still couldn't find that darned spring.

Jim kindly pointed out where they were and I still couldn't see the bottom one but my nephew could and after much profanity and skimmed knuckles we (mostly Laurence and Tim) eventually freed the offending part and oh boy! I should have taken my camera. It span freely with a bit of lateral movement but nothing too concerning and then I noticed the main bolt sleeve looked like it had moved or was too loose and the outer seals(?) were damaged so I drifted the sleeve out for a better look - could almost push out with my fingers - and the truth was there for all too see.

The needle bearings were incomplete, some slanted and the sleeve had taken a severe beating on the outer face. It had needle bearing sized indentations as if it was hammered against them as well some very serious galling around the circumference. My nephew couldn't believe it was damage, he assumed it was machined like that intentionally it was so vivid and I couldn't believe it was a bearing at all. It moved back and forth (in/out) more easily but would never go round in a month of sundays.

Unfortunately, Tim had bought the idler pulley on the strength of the "mechanics" appraisal and as it was mid-afternoon and getting chilly we called it a day so Tim could get to GSF before they closed. So I'll be returning tomorrow sans my apprentice to hopefully check and reset the timing and put it all back together again.

The only thing that's bothering me is refitting the spring bolts if it's supposed to be done a certain way - the BoL is totally useless on that score and I can't even see the lower allen bolt, let alone the bottom of the spring and where the bolt tightens into If anyone could offer handy hints and tips on this I'd be most grateful.

Thanks to Tim and his family for providing refreshments and a most welcome snack at lunchtime, it was unexpected and went down a treat. Very nice people indeed!

[CitroJim]

Mike, your phone call timing was immaculate We had literally just got the gearbox end mount on the V6 and the engine was all but in, just supported on the crane waiting for the lower and RH mount to be done. A couple of minutes before and it would have been a different story!

Yes, those tensioners are a bit of a pain and the spring is well concealed but glad it came out in the end. I's amazing how they wear and how at a casual glance they seem OK Cutting the garage a bit of slack, it might have appeared OK to them if they did not have the experience of them.

I found the best method of replacing the spring is to undo it's top mounting bolt and get the bottom one in first. You can then apply some leverage to the top of the spring against the pump cradle to get the top bolt back in.

Excellent work Mike (and Laurence and Tim) and I'm sure heavily appreciated. Pleased Tim fed and looked after you well

[MikeT]

.... A couple of minutes before and it would have been a different story!

As it happens, I did intend to call you about 5-10 minutes before but relented to give it some more thought.
Spooky or what?

Yes, those tensioners are a bit of a pain and the spring is well concealed but glad it came out in the end. I's amazing how they wear and how at a casual glance they seem OK Cutting the garage a bit of slack, it might have appeared OK to them if they did not have the experience of them.

Looking at the new tensioner today shows just how well hammered the old one is - the sleeve doesn't slide out for a start!

Unfortunately, we didn't accomplish much today as we spent too long chasing the timing. On first check, we confirmed the poor running fault was the timing being out by at least three teeth at the pump and only after belt removal did we discover the new VIN-matched timing belt was some 10 inches shorter than the one we took off. So we decided to to chance it re-using the old (newish) belt (risky I know) but kept coming up with both pulley's being one tooth too short. Tim had to leave so I gave it one last half-hearted attempt single-handed only to find it all came together. Don't ask me how I managed to find the flywheel hole while turning the engine - it just happened.

Then rain stopped play.

[lexi]

Very satisfying to find the root cause . Owner will get a nice glow when all tickety boo.

[timbo101]

Just a quick one to say a huge thanks to Mike and his Nephew for their help so far. I have tried to lend a helping hand as much as I can as my knowledge of these things is very limited but I have become very interested in whats going on and I am picking up bits I never knew which is actually rather fun and interesting.
Mike is kindly going to return to help resolve my problems so hopefuly we shall get there in the not too distant future...Tim

[MikeT]

It's a good feeling to see owners finding the courage to get stuck in to their Xantias (especially where many experienced mechanics prefer not to or fear to tread) and Tim has taken to it like a duck to water, bravo that man!

Now I'm thinking we have the opportunity to return the wrong timing belt and exchange it for the right part so I'm asking for assistance on getting it right first time. Unfortunately, I didn't make a note of the one Tim was supplied with but I just visited the GSF online shop and have come up with part number N13135 (for a MK1 Xantia 2.1TD Estate). Can anyone comfirm please?

Incidentally, while underneath the car I couldn't help noticing a wet patch around the gearbox end (the rest of the engine bay is bone dry) and from first glance appears to be the NS driveshaft/gearbox seal (though it may just be something dripping onto that from above). I haven't taken the time to investigate which fluid it is but can anyone make an educated guess what it might be so I can investigate further when we've dealth with the current job in hand? It's a fine example and well worth the investment of such maintenance IMO.

[KP]

I would reccomend giving super expert GSF manager Vince a ring at the Liverpool branch very helpfull i have found infact amazingly helpful is better to describe the kind gent that is Vince

[CitroJim]

Hi Mike,

N13135 is the correct one for the 2.1TD...

Wetness around the NS end of the diff is often spilt LHM. It's cauget me out a couple of times...

[kenhall1202]

May be relevant to gearbox 'wet' patch?

My XM 2.1TD started losing oil big time from the N/S diff drive shaft seal. Eventually found a totally blocked breather hole in the plastic plug which sits on the upper front face of the box - cleared the gunge from the breather and result - no more oil loss!

[timbo101]

Hi all,
I am over the moon to announce that she lives!!!
Mike and his Nephew have very kindly put in many hours in my absense whilst at work out of the kindness of their hearts to undertake the repair of my auxillary belt setup and a new cambelt and now everything looks to be A ok.
Without the help of these kind people and the forum I fear my nice example would be scrapyard bound and after the many 100's of pounds spent would be a travisty.
I am going to add to Mikes tool collection as a thank you and after speaking to Mike on the phone I found out that Jim kindly backs this forum with large amounts of his time and money for hosting etc etc.
Jim if you read this please let me know how I contribute to the hosting of this forum as Mike told me there is a way but please let me know the easiest way of doing it.
As soon as work lets me I will spend some time getting the other bits and pieces done to the car and will then get some photos up on the forum to show others my pride and joy.
Huge thanks to Mike, Jim and all the other forum members for your help..
Tim