Hi all,
Just thought i'd report to you all about adjusting the bosch pump found on the 1.9td and td Xantia, ZX, 306, 405 and some 2.1td XM's (may be more).
Following a few websites, namely the dodge ram one, I adjusted the star cog inside the boost compensator (the ufo on the turbo diesel ones), I only turned it 3 clicks, and the car is 'dramatically' changed, it's possibly churning out so much torque that I feel it could break a drive shaft or snap a tooth off one of the gear cogs inside the gearbox, the changes are nice to say they least.
I also turned up the overall fuel screw which needs that anti-tamper sleeving removed, basically a 'tiny' little bit of everything, obviously they can turn a LOT more to make it a dangerous car (let alone fail the MOT smoke test big time)! There is smoke (quite a bit on boost), so I will turn them all back down as I like this car and don't want it breaking down.
I doubt many of you will ever fiddle as much as I do, I just thought I'd share my shock on the transformation these tiny adjustments can do. They will be reversed.
All good fun if it's reversible.
The one thing I cannot do is get to the idle speed adjustment screw at the rear of the pump, hence the reversal of all adjustments. Sad.
bosch ve diesel pump adjustments
Moderator: RichardW
if you just google bosch ve dodge ram it should be the first link, obviously you need to get to the strainer filter in the tank (something i still haven't managed to do yet, but i will), and the main fuel filter and the air filter, but you know this anyway.
your brakes aren't binding are they?
good luck, report back your results, i'll be interested to know
your brakes aren't binding are they?
good luck, report back your results, i'll be interested to know
Done all this years ago.. Takes minutes and if done right still passes mot. Did the same for my montego back in 2004 too.
2003 Ford Mondeo ST220
2002 Ford Fiesta Zetec S
2001 Ford Puma 1.7 VCT
2008 Ford Transit Mk7
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2002 Ford Fiesta Zetec S
2001 Ford Puma 1.7 VCT
2008 Ford Transit Mk7
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MikeT
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There's a lot can be tweaked on these pumps and it's no surprise you found more power altering the spring pre-tension and full load stop screw but please be aware that can lead to engine runaway as it can take the fuelling outside the range of the idle control, as others before you have found out. I also see danger in tuning a pump as increasing fuel increases cylinder temperatures which can melt things. I've taken the precaution of fitting an EGT thermocouple in the exhaust manifold as well as the plumbing for a boost gauge. I'm not saying don't do it, in fact I applaud your experimentation, just be aware of the risks.
According to Bosch data, my pumps can flow ~134hp's worth of fuel (for a four cylinder) at a maximum pump RPM of 2250 (though others report taking it past this redline with no ill-effects). Sadly, it doesn't give the torque figures but perhaps it can be calculated if someone knows the formula?
John, are using pure diesel?
One relevant piece of advice is to test the injectors and the pump pressures are up to spec.
The biggest problem I foresaw was once you adjust one setting, it can alter another. For example, changing the full load stop will alter the idle.
As mentioned elsewhere, now I've got a spare pump I'll be dismantling it completely and posting the results if you're interested. I've read a hell of lot of information and guides over the last three years but I've yet to find one that is complete in every detail - ie doesn't leave me with misunderstandings or unanswered questions. Once done, my aim is to tune my car for maximum power across the whole range without causing excess smoke. I'd like it tuned and to pass the MOT.
According to Bosch data, my pumps can flow ~134hp's worth of fuel (for a four cylinder) at a maximum pump RPM of 2250 (though others report taking it past this redline with no ill-effects). Sadly, it doesn't give the torque figures but perhaps it can be calculated if someone knows the formula?
John, are using pure diesel?
One relevant piece of advice is to test the injectors and the pump pressures are up to spec.
The biggest problem I foresaw was once you adjust one setting, it can alter another. For example, changing the full load stop will alter the idle.
As mentioned elsewhere, now I've got a spare pump I'll be dismantling it completely and posting the results if you're interested. I've read a hell of lot of information and guides over the last three years but I've yet to find one that is complete in every detail - ie doesn't leave me with misunderstandings or unanswered questions. Once done, my aim is to tune my car for maximum power across the whole range without causing excess smoke. I'd like it tuned and to pass the MOT.
Last edited by MikeT on 24 Oct 2009, 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
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jgra1
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hi Mike, WVo 80% ....
i am not after much, just a slight sense of urgency.. sure the car had it once..
It comes on boost, but with very little obvious tell tale signs. (I can hear the turbo spinning ok with the window open)
boost is reading 16psi on the gauge, but I have never really altered anything..
i am not after much, just a slight sense of urgency.. sure the car had it once..
It comes on boost, but with very little obvious tell tale signs. (I can hear the turbo spinning ok with the window open)
boost is reading 16psi on the gauge, but I have never really altered anything..
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MikeT
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2008 C5 X7 1.6HDI VTR+ Saloon - x 231
John, one of the reasons I haven't explored WVO is the uncertainty of how well it can lubricate the pump. Another issue is the viscosity of the fuel, though the pump can be adjusted to deal with that. Ditto for the injectors as they rely on certain pressures to work at their optimum. Additionally, with the fully mechanical pump, it's the pressure that largely determines the range of timing. Even a semi mechanical pump with electronically controlled timing can be adversely affected by dirt or rust inside as well as incorrect internal fuel pressure. You can get an idea on what the internal pressure is by measuring how much fuel is returned to the tank over 90 seconds. To get an accurate reading, you need to plumb in a gauge and set the revs.
If you're getting 16psi boost (fuel makes boost) and it's lethargic after 3K but otherwise quite spritely, then I would suspect the internal pressure being low for starters. Another cause can be that the governor starts pulling fuel from quite low revs, taking off more as revs increase. Again, this can be adjusted or modified.
If your cars performance was ok before using WVO then it's almost certainly down to the fuel. Have you tried going back to 100% derv since and did it make any difference?
If you're getting 16psi boost (fuel makes boost) and it's lethargic after 3K but otherwise quite spritely, then I would suspect the internal pressure being low for starters. Another cause can be that the governor starts pulling fuel from quite low revs, taking off more as revs increase. Again, this can be adjusted or modified.
If your cars performance was ok before using WVO then it's almost certainly down to the fuel. Have you tried going back to 100% derv since and did it make any difference?
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Xaccers
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Comparing performance of Xantias with older pumps, ie mechanical pumps, with newer ones, the older ones definitely have more oomph (technical term there) even when a mechanical pump has been fitted to a newer Xantia with a cat.
However, with some tweaking, even just of the smoke screw on top, the performance, to me anyway, is pretty much the same.
I have a theory that along with fitting a cat, to meet emmision regulations, they tuned them down, hence the lower peformance.
However, with some tweaking, even just of the smoke screw on top, the performance, to me anyway, is pretty much the same.
I have a theory that along with fitting a cat, to meet emmision regulations, they tuned them down, hence the lower peformance.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
Like I said, it is a little bit scary, my turbo boost (audible) has actually gone up so much is the sense urgency in the fuelling, I am sure tweaking one would affect the other, I could be wrong... tweak the fuelling and it will spool the turbo faster and so will boost without even tweaking the turbo wastegate, on the otherhand, tweak the turbo wastegate and the fuelling will go up accordingly without touching the pump (am i right), so i think the proper way is 50% on each of the fuelling and turbo, i'm no expert but i am feeling it works like this just by experimenting myself.
So thats the fuel and intake sorted, lets not forget the exhaust, any restriction in the exhaust will not help, diesel cars have more exhaust (compare the compression of a diesel engine to a petrol engine, then consider the exhaust flow with a turbo on high boost).
Apparently you can legally take out a catalytic converter off a diesel (not sure if it's age related like petrol cars) and should still pass the MOT if it passes the smoke and emissions. So first thing would be to take out the catalytic converter, i don't have one on my xantia, but i may consider taking out the middle box, the sooner a turbo spools up the less manifold pressure there is and therefore the sooner it fuels for the turbo (and so on), so it helps with acceleration.
How hard is it to put a boost gauge on the xantia? All this power tucked away behind some screws, imagine how much you'd need to spend to get power like that out of a petrol car, as well as the hassle of re-programming the ecu! Ewww. And for 98p a litre of veggie oil from tesco we're laughing! (i only use about 10% veggie oil at the moment).
Lets be honest now, the amount of power that can be gained from these pumps is ridiculous, I would exercise extreme caution, it could literally blow your engine to smithereens, they don't put that metal collar on the fuel screw for fun, they know some idiot will turn it up (a lot)!
So thats the fuel and intake sorted, lets not forget the exhaust, any restriction in the exhaust will not help, diesel cars have more exhaust (compare the compression of a diesel engine to a petrol engine, then consider the exhaust flow with a turbo on high boost).
Apparently you can legally take out a catalytic converter off a diesel (not sure if it's age related like petrol cars) and should still pass the MOT if it passes the smoke and emissions. So first thing would be to take out the catalytic converter, i don't have one on my xantia, but i may consider taking out the middle box, the sooner a turbo spools up the less manifold pressure there is and therefore the sooner it fuels for the turbo (and so on), so it helps with acceleration.
How hard is it to put a boost gauge on the xantia? All this power tucked away behind some screws, imagine how much you'd need to spend to get power like that out of a petrol car, as well as the hassle of re-programming the ecu! Ewww. And for 98p a litre of veggie oil from tesco we're laughing! (i only use about 10% veggie oil at the moment).
Lets be honest now, the amount of power that can be gained from these pumps is ridiculous, I would exercise extreme caution, it could literally blow your engine to smithereens, they don't put that metal collar on the fuel screw for fun, they know some idiot will turn it up (a lot)!
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CitroJim
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May I please, at this point, offer a small explanation of what the screws do on a Bosch pump and utter a note of caution.
Firstly, on any diesel pump, maximum fuelling is controlled by the governor. Diesels are not throttled like a petrol engine and the maximum speed is wholly determined by how much fuel is squirted into the engine. A governor (centrifugal in the case of the Bosch) is set to deliver a maximum amount of fuel which in turn determines the rev. limit of the engine. Without a governor, a diesel would (and can) rev itself to death given sufficient fuel.
The screw on the top ( the LDA) is the on-boost overfuelling adjustment. This controls how the boost pressure increases fuel demand but only up to the limit of fuel delivery imposed by the governor. Adjusting it has the effect of causing more fuel to be injected for a given engine speed when under boost. Hence, if you go too far, the engine will smoke because there is too much fuel being delivered for the amount of air delivered. The idea behind the LDA is to give a tad more fuel when the engine is on boost and under heavy load and it's correct setting is to just give a small puff of smoke when fully invoked. Adjusting it brings it into action quicker but at the expense of exceeding the smoke limit of the engine at that particular speed. The smoke limit is the measure of the maximum fuel the engine can use under any given condition without producing smoke. It does increase power and acceleration but at the expense of emissions. The "Smoke Screw" is a good name for it. However mad you go with this screw you'll not up the overall maximum fuelling; this is set by the governor. All the LDA does effectively is push the accelerator pedal down a bit further for you even when you're flat to the floor under some circumstances.
The other screw, known as the "Power Screw", is mercifully hidden behind armour on the AS3 and for good reason. Sure if you tweak it the pump will deliver more fuel per pump stroke and seem to up the power. But and here's the bug but: What that screw does is set the maximum amount of fuel the pump can deliver and effectively adjusts the end-stop of the governor. It controls therefore, the maximum engine speed and is carefully set to ensure the engine cannot over-rev. Tweak it too enthusiastically and watch the engine go bang when the MOT man does the snap acceleration test when checking smoke density or hear and feel it go bang when you miss a gear.
Tweak it at your very peril. Upping the fuelling comes at a price.
Finally, the accelerator pedal on a Bosch (and Lucas for that matter) only stretches a spring against the governor. However hard you keep your foot pressed to the floor, the governor has the final say and will back off as it sees fit by pulling the opposite way on that same spring you're busy pushing on!
Firstly, on any diesel pump, maximum fuelling is controlled by the governor. Diesels are not throttled like a petrol engine and the maximum speed is wholly determined by how much fuel is squirted into the engine. A governor (centrifugal in the case of the Bosch) is set to deliver a maximum amount of fuel which in turn determines the rev. limit of the engine. Without a governor, a diesel would (and can) rev itself to death given sufficient fuel.
The screw on the top ( the LDA) is the on-boost overfuelling adjustment. This controls how the boost pressure increases fuel demand but only up to the limit of fuel delivery imposed by the governor. Adjusting it has the effect of causing more fuel to be injected for a given engine speed when under boost. Hence, if you go too far, the engine will smoke because there is too much fuel being delivered for the amount of air delivered. The idea behind the LDA is to give a tad more fuel when the engine is on boost and under heavy load and it's correct setting is to just give a small puff of smoke when fully invoked. Adjusting it brings it into action quicker but at the expense of exceeding the smoke limit of the engine at that particular speed. The smoke limit is the measure of the maximum fuel the engine can use under any given condition without producing smoke. It does increase power and acceleration but at the expense of emissions. The "Smoke Screw" is a good name for it. However mad you go with this screw you'll not up the overall maximum fuelling; this is set by the governor. All the LDA does effectively is push the accelerator pedal down a bit further for you even when you're flat to the floor under some circumstances.
The other screw, known as the "Power Screw", is mercifully hidden behind armour on the AS3 and for good reason. Sure if you tweak it the pump will deliver more fuel per pump stroke and seem to up the power. But and here's the bug but: What that screw does is set the maximum amount of fuel the pump can deliver and effectively adjusts the end-stop of the governor. It controls therefore, the maximum engine speed and is carefully set to ensure the engine cannot over-rev. Tweak it too enthusiastically and watch the engine go bang when the MOT man does the snap acceleration test when checking smoke density or hear and feel it go bang when you miss a gear.
Tweak it at your very peril. Upping the fuelling comes at a price.
Finally, the accelerator pedal on a Bosch (and Lucas for that matter) only stretches a spring against the governor. However hard you keep your foot pressed to the floor, the governor has the final say and will back off as it sees fit by pulling the opposite way on that same spring you're busy pushing on!
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
So if anyone still feels the need to play with there pump read this
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 1931086722
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 1931086722
99 406 LX HDI 90 estate
99 C250TD sport estate
01 306 HDI 90 meridian estate
Brew my own biodiesel
http://www.shorewasteoil.xtreemhost.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
99 C250TD sport estate
01 306 HDI 90 meridian estate
Brew my own biodiesel
http://www.shorewasteoil.xtreemhost.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is an interesting subject, and one I'm surprised hasn't been discussed in depth like this before on this forum.
Jim has clarified a lot for me anyway.
Thanks for that jim, it does need to be said by someone who knows.
That link mark21td is a good one, but I should add that it does show how to remove the physical limiter on the fuel pump (i.e turning the screw back so the accelerator cable itself can go further), this would be a very stupid thing to do if you are 'already' over fuelling the car, it will blow up.
I've already tuned my car so much that I only drive using half my accelerator pedal now if I floor it! I really must reset the tweaking i've done.
Finally, I know I started this thread after the excitement of my results, I am not actively encouraging anyone else to go turning their screws up a lot (if at all), and if you do and your car blows up please don't blame me or the forum in any way. Also think of the 'broad' legal consequences, if someone sees you overtaking another car splurting out loads of black smoke, and you end up having a crash, then eyewitnesses may mention the black smoke and the cops/insurance company will check the car over and may find your tweaking skills on the pump, your insurance may become invalid etc etc (you will stand deep in it)... there may be a big can of worms there, just a warning, nothing to do with me.
Jim has clarified a lot for me anyway.
Thanks for that jim, it does need to be said by someone who knows.
That link mark21td is a good one, but I should add that it does show how to remove the physical limiter on the fuel pump (i.e turning the screw back so the accelerator cable itself can go further), this would be a very stupid thing to do if you are 'already' over fuelling the car, it will blow up.
I've already tuned my car so much that I only drive using half my accelerator pedal now if I floor it! I really must reset the tweaking i've done.
Finally, I know I started this thread after the excitement of my results, I am not actively encouraging anyone else to go turning their screws up a lot (if at all), and if you do and your car blows up please don't blame me or the forum in any way. Also think of the 'broad' legal consequences, if someone sees you overtaking another car splurting out loads of black smoke, and you end up having a crash, then eyewitnesses may mention the black smoke and the cops/insurance company will check the car over and may find your tweaking skills on the pump, your insurance may become invalid etc etc (you will stand deep in it)... there may be a big can of worms there, just a warning, nothing to do with me.
CitroJim wrote:Tweak it at your very peril. Upping the fuelling comes at a price.
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citroenxm
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Well what about all those DIRTY Ford F@@Kups, which seem to CONSTANLY smoke all the time when they put their foots down, and those horrid 4x4 Disco's with the TDi's Ive never seen anything smke worse, CERTAINLY from a PSA car!! I dont think a car you be passing would even bother about the smoke out the back as all older "mechanical" DERV engines smoke under hard acceleration! EVEN Original VW TDi units....!deian wrote:Also think of the 'broad' legal consequences, if someone sees you overtaking another car splurting out loads of black smoke, and you end up having a crash, then eyewitnesses may mention the black smoke and the cops/insurance company will check the car over and may find your tweaking skills on the pump, your insurance may become invalid etc etc (you will stand deep in it)... there may be a big can of worms there, just a warning, nothing to do with me.
CitroJim wrote:Tweak it at your very peril. Upping the fuelling comes at a price.
Paul
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
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A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project
A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
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CitroJim
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Indeed Paul 
In these days of "green" and awareness of pollution, it has always bemuses me just how much smoke many modern diesels make. Makes me wonder how they pass the smoke density test at MOT time.
Conversely a good XUD on mechanical injection (Bosch or Lucas) barely smokes at all unless really provoked. Ditto the 2.1TD on EPIC and doubtless the HDi.
I've always maintained if an XUD smokes there's something wrong with it.
So much for what passes for progress these days....
In these days of "green" and awareness of pollution, it has always bemuses me just how much smoke many modern diesels make. Makes me wonder how they pass the smoke density test at MOT time.
Conversely a good XUD on mechanical injection (Bosch or Lucas) barely smokes at all unless really provoked. Ditto the 2.1TD on EPIC and doubtless the HDi.
I've always maintained if an XUD smokes there's something wrong with it.
So much for what passes for progress these days....
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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myglaren
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Ooops.
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It never fails to amaze me the amount of black smoke that VWs & Audis kick out where mine doesn't. They aren't accelerating any faster either.citroenxm wrote:Well what about all those DIRTY Ford F@@Kups, which seem to CONSTANLY smoke all the time when they put their foots down, and those horrid 4x4 Disco's with the TDi's Ive never seen anything smke worse, CERTAINLY from a PSA car!! I dont think a car you be passing would even bother about the smoke out the back as all older "mechanical" DERV engines smoke under hard acceleration! EVEN Original VW TDi units....!deian wrote:Also think of the 'broad' legal consequences, if someone sees you overtaking another car splurting out loads of black smoke, and you end up having a crash, then eyewitnesses may mention the black smoke and the cops/insurance company will check the car over and may find your tweaking skills on the pump, your insurance may become invalid etc etc (you will stand deep in it)... there may be a big can of worms there, just a warning, nothing to do with me.
CitroJim wrote:Tweak it at your very peril. Upping the fuelling comes at a price.
Paul