Xantia starting Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Moderator: RichardW
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pete woods
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 10 Dec 2002, 23:58
- Location: United Kingdom
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Xantia starting Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those of you who have been following this over the last 5 months will know that I thought I'd finally found a way to get the thing to start from cold by using 1/4 throttle[:D]. Sadly this has not worked[xx(]. It seems that trying this just coincided with the weather warming up. now it's cold again the starting is as bad as ever. Looking on the bright side this must mean that it's not fuel starvation or air leaks causing the problem. this leaves the pre heat system so I will have to check it all again. there MUST be a fault in it somewhere[:(!]!
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tomsheppard
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I have a 1996 1.9TD and i was experiencing starting problems also.
It would require 3-4 turns of the key (just heating) to get the car to start. When it did start i would disappear in a cloud of smoke (it was comical.. like something out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang) and it would chug a bit for 30-60 seconds until it warmed up.
First I got a cleaner called 'BDT Fuel System & Injector Cleaner & Conditioner Petrol/Diesel/Turbo Engines' and this helped a little and the smoke colour turned whiter also.
I then changed oil - no joy, air filter - no joy, fuel filter - no joy
I started using using Millers Diesel Power Plus as i read from the forum that this was a good choice - slight improvments.
It got to the stage where it took me 3/4 of an hour to start it one morning last week (it was a cold morning). I changed 3 of the glow plugs last Friday - this seems to have done it, no smoke or chugging.
1 question though:
- how do you change the 4th glow plug which is behind the fuel pump with out pulling apart the engine?
Andy
It would require 3-4 turns of the key (just heating) to get the car to start. When it did start i would disappear in a cloud of smoke (it was comical.. like something out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang) and it would chug a bit for 30-60 seconds until it warmed up.
First I got a cleaner called 'BDT Fuel System & Injector Cleaner & Conditioner Petrol/Diesel/Turbo Engines' and this helped a little and the smoke colour turned whiter also.
I then changed oil - no joy, air filter - no joy, fuel filter - no joy
I started using using Millers Diesel Power Plus as i read from the forum that this was a good choice - slight improvments.
It got to the stage where it took me 3/4 of an hour to start it one morning last week (it was a cold morning). I changed 3 of the glow plugs last Friday - this seems to have done it, no smoke or chugging.
1 question though:
- how do you change the 4th glow plug which is behind the fuel pump with out pulling apart the engine?
Andy
I have had the same problem with a 1995 ZX 1.9 TD with catalytic converter. The car has done 130,000 kms.
Cold starting is difficult and when it starts it has a lumpy tickover and produces a lot of smoke. After running for a few seconds it runs as normal again. Glow plugs and injectors have been changed and the fuel
system has been pressure tested. The problem is still there.
Cold starting is difficult and when it starts it has a lumpy tickover and produces a lot of smoke. After running for a few seconds it runs as normal again. Glow plugs and injectors have been changed and the fuel
system has been pressure tested. The problem is still there.
What is the forum's collective opinion of using "Easy Start" ether like products in these circumstances? I have a Leyland engine fitted in a canal boat which has a habit of filling up the drillways into which the glowplugs extend. The carbon prevents the glowplugs from working and I resort to the can to get the thing going.
I know that many people frown upon it. What do you all say? Better than cranking the engine for 45 minutes?
I know that many people frown upon it. What do you all say? Better than cranking the engine for 45 minutes?
These engines start should 1st turn of the key, EVERY time, second turn of the key - there's something wrong! 45 minutes - well I'd have given up long ago. over the years we asa family have run a number of diesels, starting with a Ferguson 4 cylinder tractor and a BMC 2.2 in a Landrover. Once sorted the BMC was fine, the Ferguson has functioned on light use for the last 25 years on Easystart and still runs fine - but these engines were notoriously bad starters which has been blamed on many things fundamental to the design, including low compression on starting due to sealing problems on (then) relatively small cylinders. (2 1/4 litres was small when that was made!)
Easy start is ether which as you know is highly flammable. I think its fairly safe with a glow plug system byt older systems (like the Ferguson) which spray paraffin onto an element and set fire to it - well NO ! Generally when used the engine starts with a few loud bangs which can't do it any good and must overload a number of parts but I suppose if after all this investigation you cant find the problem then you haven't got much to loose!
Diesels start on full throttle anyway but as soon as they fire the governor cuts back the fuel so by giving the thing throtle as you start you are assisting the subsequent firing strokes, not the first. Sounds like air in the fuel to me.
Jeremy
Easy start is ether which as you know is highly flammable. I think its fairly safe with a glow plug system byt older systems (like the Ferguson) which spray paraffin onto an element and set fire to it - well NO ! Generally when used the engine starts with a few loud bangs which can't do it any good and must overload a number of parts but I suppose if after all this investigation you cant find the problem then you haven't got much to loose!
Diesels start on full throttle anyway but as soon as they fire the governor cuts back the fuel so by giving the thing throtle as you start you are assisting the subsequent firing strokes, not the first. Sounds like air in the fuel to me.
Jeremy
I would suggest you beware using fluids that burn too rapidly as they can cause a rapid and uncontrolled rise in cylinder pressure which can exceed the design specifications of the engine.
Many years ago (well alright, 20 then) I used Easy Start in copious quantities to try to start a Renault Trafic Diesel. It appears that these engines have wet cylinder liners of rather doubtful strength.
My unwitting efforts succeeded in barrelling the centres of all 4 liners to the point where they had to be replaced...........
Ho Hum! [:(][8D]
Many years ago (well alright, 20 then) I used Easy Start in copious quantities to try to start a Renault Trafic Diesel. It appears that these engines have wet cylinder liners of rather doubtful strength.
My unwitting efforts succeeded in barrelling the centres of all 4 liners to the point where they had to be replaced...........
Ho Hum! [:(][8D]
Re: Easy start.
I haven't used it for years & then it was usually to initially start racing engines with compressions that would shame many diesels. I have used it on a diesel before today & as has been sais, made some frightning bangs on start up, however I recently had a guy working at my place with a back hoe (Toyota Bob-cat actually) that just decided it didn't want to start. In an effort to try to get it to kick over he used all his Easy Start (gentle souls plant operators) [}:)] then grabbed an LPG blowtorch & proceeded to pour copious amounts of gas down the intake & still it wouldn't start.
"Hang on, I think I have just the stuff" I called out to him, grabbed my can of "magic spray" & first hit & it fired. My "Magic spray?" well it was an el cheapo brand of aerosol engine degreaser...any port in a storm when you're paying the prices per hour these fellows charge & the machine won't start.
Possibly not recommended practice but worked better than Easy Start. [:D][:o)]
Alan S
I haven't used it for years & then it was usually to initially start racing engines with compressions that would shame many diesels. I have used it on a diesel before today & as has been sais, made some frightning bangs on start up, however I recently had a guy working at my place with a back hoe (Toyota Bob-cat actually) that just decided it didn't want to start. In an effort to try to get it to kick over he used all his Easy Start (gentle souls plant operators) [}:)] then grabbed an LPG blowtorch & proceeded to pour copious amounts of gas down the intake & still it wouldn't start.
"Hang on, I think I have just the stuff" I called out to him, grabbed my can of "magic spray" & first hit & it fired. My "Magic spray?" well it was an el cheapo brand of aerosol engine degreaser...any port in a storm when you're paying the prices per hour these fellows charge & the machine won't start.
Possibly not recommended practice but worked better than Easy Start. [:D][:o)]
Alan S
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- x 2
Well if you are unfortunate enough to have a old ford transit with a york diesel engine in it, then yes use it.
If you have a Peugeot diesel engine then you should have no need to use it ever, those that do quite simply have engine trouble in one form or other.
<font color="blue">"1 question though:
- how do you change the 4th glow plug which is behind the fuel pump with out pulling apart the engine?
Andy"</font id="blue">
You do it by shifting anything that impedes your access to it with the tools you have at your disposal, there are no magic spanners that will do this for you.
Pack some rag down behind the injection pump, clean the area around the fuel pipe banjo union on the pump and remove the pipe, recover the copper washers and screw the bolt back in and cover it with a plastic bag, unclip any water pipes (not hose connections), electrical cables, air ducting and move them aside, remove the 8mm nut holding the glow bus cable on and then you need a 12mm cranked ring spanner to loosen the plug.
A way to make refitting of the glow cable easier is to cut the end of the cable ring fitting to form a slot that will allow the 5mm thread on the plug to pass between it, this allows you to screw the plug back in with the 8mm nut allready in place, you then simply slide the cable under it and tighten nut.
Alternatively you can jam the nut into a small socket using paper, this will make it easier to get the nut back on.
It isn't easey granted, but nor is it impossible, you will curse a bit but you will do it.
Dave
If you have a Peugeot diesel engine then you should have no need to use it ever, those that do quite simply have engine trouble in one form or other.
<font color="blue">"1 question though:
- how do you change the 4th glow plug which is behind the fuel pump with out pulling apart the engine?
Andy"</font id="blue">
You do it by shifting anything that impedes your access to it with the tools you have at your disposal, there are no magic spanners that will do this for you.
Pack some rag down behind the injection pump, clean the area around the fuel pipe banjo union on the pump and remove the pipe, recover the copper washers and screw the bolt back in and cover it with a plastic bag, unclip any water pipes (not hose connections), electrical cables, air ducting and move them aside, remove the 8mm nut holding the glow bus cable on and then you need a 12mm cranked ring spanner to loosen the plug.
A way to make refitting of the glow cable easier is to cut the end of the cable ring fitting to form a slot that will allow the 5mm thread on the plug to pass between it, this allows you to screw the plug back in with the 8mm nut allready in place, you then simply slide the cable under it and tighten nut.
Alternatively you can jam the nut into a small socket using paper, this will make it easier to get the nut back on.
It isn't easey granted, but nor is it impossible, you will curse a bit but you will do it.
Dave
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JohnD
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave Burns</i>
Well if you are unfortunate enough to have a old ford transit with a york diesel engine in it, then yes use it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A York Transit was my first introduction to diesel engines when I bought a minibus back in 1975. It didn't have glowplugs. Instead it had a small reservoir mounted on the bulkhead and permenantly filled with diesel. To start, a button was held down which allowed a trickle of diesel to fall onto a small heater below the aircleaner. In due course after keying the starter the engine fired up with bags of smoke. To use the system with the air cleaner off was frightening to see flames belching from the manifold.
After a year or so I bought a 'Start Pilot' from Ford. It was a kit containing a small plastic cup which was fitted on the dashboard with a plunger alongside. By pulling the plunger once, it fed into the manifold a squirt of ether. The engine then fired up with a huge clatter. Later, I got a replacement cylinder head tapped for glowplugs which when fitted, were connected directly to the battery through a relay. No timer - just a spring switch. And to stop the engine, you pulled a knob on the dash. Who wants technology?
Well if you are unfortunate enough to have a old ford transit with a york diesel engine in it, then yes use it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A York Transit was my first introduction to diesel engines when I bought a minibus back in 1975. It didn't have glowplugs. Instead it had a small reservoir mounted on the bulkhead and permenantly filled with diesel. To start, a button was held down which allowed a trickle of diesel to fall onto a small heater below the aircleaner. In due course after keying the starter the engine fired up with bags of smoke. To use the system with the air cleaner off was frightening to see flames belching from the manifold.
After a year or so I bought a 'Start Pilot' from Ford. It was a kit containing a small plastic cup which was fitted on the dashboard with a plunger alongside. By pulling the plunger once, it fed into the manifold a squirt of ether. The engine then fired up with a huge clatter. Later, I got a replacement cylinder head tapped for glowplugs which when fitted, were connected directly to the battery through a relay. No timer - just a spring switch. And to stop the engine, you pulled a knob on the dash. Who wants technology?
Just a word of caution - when you refit the glowplugs, particularily those that are awkward t get at, resist the temptation to put a spanner on them straight away, and instead make sure you screw them in fully by hand. The reason is to avoid crossing the thread in the aloy head.
On my BX on the original head no 4 plug (nearest the camshaft) is difficult unless a deep socket is used. When i came to replace this plug I couldn't get it out and when I did there was a mess of chewed up alloy attached to it. Luckily the new plug bit on the last bit of thread and sealed, but it was easy to see that the easiest way to fit it was to put in in the hole and then wind it in with a socket - whoch had been done and crossed the thread.
jeremy
On my BX on the original head no 4 plug (nearest the camshaft) is difficult unless a deep socket is used. When i came to replace this plug I couldn't get it out and when I did there was a mess of chewed up alloy attached to it. Luckily the new plug bit on the last bit of thread and sealed, but it was easy to see that the easiest way to fit it was to put in in the hole and then wind it in with a socket - whoch had been done and crossed the thread.
jeremy