Xantia 1.9TD Aux Belt Failure

petjb2000 · Unread post by **petjb2000** » 18 Aug 2009, 01:55

Hi,

My first post here but I have read the collected wisdom closely and hope that someone could help.

The dearly love 1.9 TD has done the auxillary belt failure which threw the timing belt out by one tooth. Car failed at home and was able to restart and drive into garage but a lot of noise from cam area. Replaced aux belt and retimed engine using the dowels in flywheel, pump and camshaft pulleys. But the car won't start. Fuel is there and smoking out the back when try to start. Tappet cover is now off and find that camshaft is good, all valves are moving OK but gaps are about 2 - 4 thou for inlets and 11 thou for exhaust. 1 glow plug has failed. Now pulling injectors out to check compression.

Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Peter

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 18 Aug 2009, 08:07

sounds like you have bent valves to me, maybe not when it first went but after re/startting to move the car,

with glow plug and injectors still in place dose the engine spin over very fast if so definetly damage caused

regards malcolm

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 18 Aug 2009, 09:02

Hi Peter and welcome to the forum

Sorry to hear what has happened

If the engine is properly timed and you're getting smoke when trying (white/grey I would assume) then this is almost certainly a lack of compression.

Normally, the valves don't bend initially as they're at right angles to the pistons so get pushed up squarely if they contact the pistons. Often, this snaps the camshaft and breaks a cam bearing cap or two.

However, running with the timing out and noise from the top end, it is very likely that the valves are now damaged and it takes only a tiny bit of damage to loose sufficient compression to result in the engine not starting.

The good news is that it is recoverable. It'll need for the head to come off and to fit new valves but at least it seems the cam and caps have survived but do check each cap and the cam very carefully for cracks. Also, with new valves, you'll need to reset the valve clearances.

Another clue that all is not appy in the valve department is your existing clearances. They're a tad tight. Inlets should be around 0.1mm and exhausts 0.3mm.

Whe you're resetting the clearances, I have am Excel-based spreadsheet calculator to help work out the shim thicknesses needed.

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 18 Aug 2009, 09:24

Could it be the flywheel timing is 180 degrees out Jim?

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 18 Aug 2009, 09:49

Xac wrote:Could it be the flywheel timing is 180 degrees out Jim?

Good point Xac

Worth checking.

An easy way is to observe the crank pulley keyway. It should be at roughly 11 - 12 o'clock.

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 18 Aug 2009, 10:11

Cant be out, Im SURE theres only one Timing Pin Hole for the Crank, meaning you cant get it 180deg out...

I would ALSO investigate the Cause of failure of the Aux Belt, Does your car have Air Con? and the crappy stupid auto tensioner?? I BET A FEW BEERS its a faulty Aux belt auto tensioner!!

Does it look like its leaning to one side a bit?? If you've NOT replaced it it WILL chew the new Aux belt and you'll have the same problem again!!!

Paul

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 18 Aug 2009, 13:32

it is possible to visualy check if the cranck is in the right position,

on the end face of the block just above the cranck sprocket, there is a small raised square block in the oil pump houseing cover, if you turn the cranck till the rear edge of the woodruff key is in line with the front edge of the square block that is just about spot on for the pin/peg to drop into the flywheel,

regards malcolm

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 18 Aug 2009, 14:02

citroenxm wrote:Cant be out, Im SURE theres only one Timing Pin Hole for the Crank, meaning you cant get it 180deg out...

While I'm 90% sure there's one every 90degrees, at least on mine as I have a vague memory of rotating the crank and the pin slipping in well before TDC.

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 18 Aug 2009, 14:13

there's one guys, an offset hole.. there are 6 holes for clutch plate bolts, which often cause confusion.

?

J

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 18 Aug 2009, 15:09

I thought so......

Xantidote · Unread post by **Xantidote** » 18 Aug 2009, 18:52

Picking up on the valve clearances issue, I found on doing a BX turbo diesel's head, that having very precisely shimmed the head before installation, all the gaps then reduced on torquing the head down, by 2-3 thou. I assumed this occurred because the aluminium head compressed as the bolts were tightened.

So when I had to do the head gasket on the present Xantia 1.9TD, I made the requisite adjustment of 2-3 thou for the anticipated change in gap clearance on torquing down, and the final clearances were fine

Anyone else experienced this?

Martin

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 18 Aug 2009, 19:25

jgra1 wrote:there's one guys, an offset hole.. there are 6 holes for clutch plate bolts, which often cause confusion.

I meant there is just one timing hole to use but...if it was a clutch plate hole my pin (drill shank) found, shouldn't it have had the bolt in it?

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 18 Aug 2009, 23:22

hi Mike, I found the drill shank went in so far.. I dont think the clutch housing bolts protrude at all...

but only the main timing hole allowed the drill to go in straight (or an 8mm allen bolt)

I remember dad having problems checking timing because he saw/felt different holes that were all inboard of the 'one'

petjb2000 · Unread post by **petjb2000** » 19 Aug 2009, 23:12

Gee, thanks for all the information, I'm very appreciatative, what a great welcome.

I'll check the position of the keyway to make sure that the timing is perfect, especially if there is a chance that there are multiple timing holes in the flywheel.

The car has air con but I suspect that the cause of the auxillary belt failure was a chip out of the crankshaft pulley which neatly cut away one edge of the belt. The tensioners all felt ok (I checked these closely after reading the posts on this forum about previous failures).

The camshaft is now out and all the bearing caps are in good condition, thank goodness. I'm getting the shims shaved and reconditioning the injectors (just because they have 250,000 kms on them). The valves seem to move OK and I would have expected much larger gaps if there were bent?

Before the camshaft cam out I rechecked the timing and I think that despite bolting the fuel pump and camshaft pulleys it was out again. I am missing a tooth out of the timing belt or did it move when I tensioned it up? Is there a method to ensure 100% correct timing?

Thanks greatly,

Peter

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 20 Aug 2009, 08:13

set the timming all pins/pegs inplace, tention the belt and lock off the tensioner,

remove all the pins/pegs, rotate the carnck two full revalutions then refit all the pins/pegs, and then re/check the belt tension,

if you dont peg the flywheel it the cranck can move out of sink (no not the kitchen sink TEA HE) by about 4 teeth,

i always use a length of kunifer brake pipe to peg the flywheel,

then if you/i forget to remove it before crancking the engine you can still yank it out

regards malcolm