long discussion about vibration between 40 & 50 mph

[falling-out-with-my-car]

To everyone who has taken part in posts regarding vibration on the front of citroen xantias.

firstly I replaced my front wheels which were severely buckled, they were spun up to speed by the tyre fitters off the car which highlighted the buckles even though their balence machines would balence them down to zero, their machines wouldn't go fast enough to make the shaft in the machine wobble whilst on the car speeds of 40 and 50 Mph there was still a slight wobble occuring.

In another of my posts the issue of the O/s driveshaft bearing was raised.
Thank You everyone who took part particularly Brigsygtt who gave me the confidence to strip out the O/s driveshaft, I found no apparent wear to either of the two cv joints and the bearing seems to be in pretty good condition also, so where was the wobble comming from?

after much searching I found that the Off side lower wishbone rear rubber mount was badly split.
fortunately citroen have them in stock as the auto factors dont do them and the price is £27.00.

I shall repack the cv joints with new grease and re-fit the old driveshaft with a new wishbone rear rubber mount. fitting a new oil seal on the gearbox.

Hopefully this will answer the great puzzle of those who are looking for causes of vibrartion or wobble on the front end of the xantia.

once again I can't thank those people enough who helped to advise me on the removal of the drive shaft, the haynes manual is pretty hopeless, the bearing retainning bolt heads are impossible to see because they are behind the upper cv joint so it is difficult to know wether or not you have turned them 90 degrees to release the bearing.
I used a brass drift against the upper cv joint cup to drift the bearing from its housng as it seemed a bit stubborn to move, the usual mix of steel against aluminium not mixing very well.

hopefully this is the solution to the wobble between 40 and 50 MPH.

the O/s wheel must have been going toe in /out at speed throwing the wheel off balance, it seems pretty strange that this wasn't detectable by looking at the old worn tyres.

I will post the rsults when I have put it all back together again.

regards and many Thanks Nigel.

[citronut]

Nigel a good motor factors should be able to supply the P bush/s as GSF do,

i think there part No. is N42228/9

and im sure they wont be 27 quid,

and the trick with those hocky stick bearing retainning bolts is remove the nut completly, then drift the shaft out at the colar at the gear box side of the bearing houseing

kind regards

malcolm

[falling-out-with-my-car]

malcom,

my nearest GSF is 50 miles round trip the local citroen garage is 3 miles round trip and they had it in stock, I was expecting to have to replace the whole offside drive shaft so it hasn't worked out to be quite such an expensive day anyway, I have opened the middle cv joint and cleaned it out applying plenty of new cv grease before closing it up again.
the gearbox oil seal also wasn't available at two other motor factors but again citroen had one in stock, it is different to the old seal which needs a dust cap which fits on the driveshaft, the new seal doesn't need the dustcap as one side of it is closed.

I sprayed the wishbone rear mount bolts with wd 40 had a cuppa and held the lock nuts with an 18mm ring spanner whilst I undid the bolts from beneath the the subframe with a 18mm 1/2 inch drive socket and a long bar, the threads are a little corroded but I shall run a dye down the threads before they are put back in.

there was no need to remove the bearing bolt nuts completely just wind them back to the ends of the bolts, getting them back in should be easier as they drop into sockets in the bearing mounting to stop the heads spining as you tighten the nuts behind the bearing housing, I shall have to mark their position with a marker pen on the back of the bearing housing then I shall know exactly how and which way to turn them to place them in the lock position.

regards Nigel.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

another day S*ding about because the rubber bush supposed to fit on the rear of the lower wishbone doesn't fit, so it's a phone call to the citroen garage to make sure we have the right part,our freindly parts manager checks their computer to see if it might be a different size on a MK1 Xantia which it is not. the final conclusion is that maybe at some point before I owned the car someone fitted a factors wishbone which came as a complete unit bushes included.

so it's out with the P600 wet and dry and some oil to take the shaft on the wishbone down 1 to 2 thou so it will fit into the steel collet on the rubber bush which bolts to the chassis.

After about 10mins sanding and breaking the P600 wet and dry strips I switched to soap and water as a lubricant and the sandpaper didn't break again, the citroen supplied bush had very sharp edges on the steel collet in the middle of the rubber bush, I filed these very carefullly for about an hour at both ends, when I looked a little morte carefully I noticed raised veins where the collet has been badly cast in the manufacturing process.
I filed out the veins and believe it or not the steel collet finally slid over the shaft of the wishbone allowing some movement to allow the wishbone to move up and down with the suspension.

I had to be very careful to make the wishbone fit tightly but allow enough movement up and down once it is all bolted to the chassis.

heres a great tip for anyone stuck with a similar situation , the top CV joint on the Offside driveshaft next to the intermeadiate bearing had two splits in it and the boot cannot be replaced easily this side of the driveshaft is welded together and makes removal of the boot complex.

I intended to repack this joint with fresh CV grease whilst the Shaft was off the car anyway.

releasing the cv clip the two halfs of the long driveshaft came apart, I cleaned the inside of the cv boot out with solvent cleaner and let it dry, I also cleaned both of the splits the cv boot had one about and inch long and another about 1/8 of an inch long running parallel to the shaft. i also cleaned the outside o the cv boot.

I have to admit I tried superglue first but it didn't want to hold very well so I went throught the process of glueing it all up and packing the joint with grease and found a leak, so I had to start all over again.

once the cv boot was cleaned up again I had a brain wave, I cut some thin leather patches from an old leather wallet and glued them to the outside of nthe cv boot with something called "Evo stick serious glue" it is only available in b & q.

this glue is brilliant it will fix a puncture on your bike it doesnt dry hard more like rubber it is waterproof moveable for 2 mins and touch dry in about 2 hours and it glues all those horrible hard plastics that nothing else will take to, even superglue. it is fully dry in 24 hours quicker if the weather is warm. we glue R/c model submarines water tight chambers together with it so its pretty good stuff. they claim it sticks just about everything and its capeable of withstanding temperatures of -30 to +130 degrees C. apparently it glues metal to.

I smeared some more of this glue over the top of the patches as well to make them water proof, the results seem to very good indeed.

I repacked the joint and the patches seems to be holding back the grease very well.
whilst under the xantia I noticed that the Near side steering rack Convelluted boot was split so guess what? youve guesed it I stuck it back together with Serious glue after cleanning the boot with solvent cleaner, left the boot compressed together by turnning the steering to the left lock. I think this glue could seriously (excuse the pun) make a difference to cost consious car owner that wants to bend the rules just a little without putting lives at risk.
however the repairs to the cv boot are not a permenant solution as I intend to replace the whole shaft when the deep pockets fill with money again, it just hasn't worn out completely yet so I couldn't see the point if the cv boot could be repaired.

regards Nigel.

[myglaren]

Sounds serious stuff, sir!

[falling-out-with-my-car]

And thats not all Steve,

taking the wishbone end down 2 thou to fit into the centre of the rubber bush mean't that the groove meant to hold grease to lubricate it became non existant so I had to file another groove.
flamin weather is against me today don 't fancy sitting in a puddle to put the driveshaft back and people are laughing at me all six fot six of me driving around all be it temp in a small ford fiesta, embarassing. one even offered to buy me a tube of lipstick for the mirror, I am not in the mood for that kind of humour. I miss my Xantia, the first time I got in the fiesta it felt like it was going to roll when I forgot i was in a ford and tried to take a roundabout at 40mph.

regards Nigel.

[citronut]

Nigle these bush's usualy are a very very tight fit, i know they seem like they aint going to go back on but with lots of PERCY WHAT SIT they do go without taking any off the spigot,

to get them off i usualy cut a slot the length of the inner metel sleave with a cutting disc on an angle grinder,

these must be an interfearance fit or you will almost certainly end up with the bush becomming loose on its spigot

kind regards
malcolm

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Malcom,

the bush would not in a month of sundays no matter how hard we tried ever fit onto the spigot on the wishbone. the bush wouldn't go on as a push fit or with a drift it jammed solid about a quarter of the way on,

In my comments above I did mention the fault veins within the centre of the bush which needed to be finely filed out these were causing some resistance and preventing the bush sleeve from going onto the spigot.
the spigot was also to large in diameter. it was possiable to remove the new bush from the spigot only by placing the wishbone loosley in a metal vice and holding a 1/2 inch withworth spanner behind the centre sleeve and drifting the spigot out of the sleeve with a brass drift and a 4LB lump hammer, this was far to tight for a joint that is supposed to have some movement.

yes we did remove the steel sleeve with a grinder cutting it first on one side then coaxing it off with a chisel. besides it had corroded on and with no movement the spigot had torn the steel sleve from the rubber bonded bush, whic is exactly what would happen again with an interfearence fit, if that is how it is supposed to be.

the joint is a pivot and the wishbone needs to pivot up and down if not then the rubber will tear away from the bushes housing once again.
I also have to ask why the spigot has a lubrication groove in the centre of it if the jiont is not supposed to be mobile?

a lot of filing with a very fine file and then some carbarandon powder with some oil ensured a good fit without any sloppyness.
I added some silicone grease to the joint before assembly to keep the water out after filing a new ridge in the spigot to hold lubricant.

the ride is beautiful now except to say for a slight shake at about 43 mph but nothing on the scale of what it was, I now put this down to the lower engine mount (donut) which is an adviseable replacement thing to do if replacing the o/s driveshaft. as the driveshaft had no apparent wear I didn't replace the donut but I will be doing so as I believe that it has been weakened significantly by the shaking of the wishbone over the last six months or so. you would have had to be barmey to assume you could assemble the bush an wishbone without drifting the bush onto the spigot
(which was impossiable) and accepting that the joint had no free movement whatsoever.

if this is how its supposed to be why make the wishbone and bush seperately why not just bond the rubber bush to the end of the wishbone spigot?

as I mentioned earlier the final conclusion was that the O/s wishbone was probably an autofactor product that came with ready mounted bushes of a different size, this is why when I ccompared the difference with the nearside wishbone they appear to be slightly different in thickness and pattern.

a set of verniers confirmed that the wishbone spigot was in fact half a mil thicker in daimeter compared to the Near side wishbone spigot. this is why when you have two of the same it pays to compare measurements.
the nearside joint has now been lubricated with silicone lubricant as this will not attack the rubber bush.

regards Nigel.

[citronut]

sorry Nigel but the inner sleave of the bush is not ment to have any movment what so ever, and is ment to be an interfearance fit,

i have fitted several of these and they are a right cow to get right,

so not to mince words it sounds to me like you have destroyed that arm

all that will happen now with your bush's is the will become loose very quickly,

they are only ment to flex on the rubber part of the bush,

this is why you must fit the new bush in exactly the same plane as the original, if you dont get it spot on this will destroy the rubber part of the new bush quite soon after fitting it

kind regards
malcolm

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Malcom,

I appreciate your comments But.

How can it be possiable to fit the new bush in the same plane as the orriginal if the centre of the bush has come away from the orriginal bush?

you are asking for the impossible.

you advised me yourself that the old mount bush was better cut off with grinder. citroen must use some kind of press to fit these then? because they won't drift on they are far to tight.

why create a bush and spigot why not just bond the rubber to the spigot if it not supposed to move.

and why when you remove the orriginal bush is their a lubrication well in the spigot.
drifiting it on simply damaged the spigot and the collar in the bush (which was our first attempt).
there was no option but to reduce the diameter of the spigot to match that of the N/s spigot.

it is still a very tight fit. we shall have to see how it goes so far so good.

regards Nigel.

[addo]

Normally a bush has such a bonded inner sleeve to make it a replaceable unit - without having to attack the part proper.

The tight press fit is part of how it works as a suspension element - "indexing" the rubber correctly means there is no torsion on it during normal ride height settings. As the suspension is compressed or extended, the rubber develops a torsional springing effect that helps return the parts to neutral.

In terms of press fitting - you'd be surprised what can be done with a decent five-tonner and shaped supporting blocks. It won't hurt, either, to warm the bush (within reason!) or chill the shaft end in dry ice.

[Pleiades]

Nigel.

I have read carefully and tend to be on Malcolms side, these bushes are very tight and I allways put them in with our hydraulic press, the idea is that the metal on the outside of the bush sould be an interference fit into the arm, but still a replacable part rather than the whole arm needing to be replaced.

Having said that, if customers ask me for the bushes, I normally try to talk them into a fully rebuilt arm with the new bushes fitted in, as I know that if I sell them the bushes, they will have troubles as most folks dont have access to a decent press.

If you think that the arm has been replaced with a not so good pattern one in the past and this could be true, let me know and I am sure that I have lots of old arms lying about and you are welcome to have one.

Regards
Martin.

[citronut]

so Martin how much do you charge including carridge (UK mainland) for a re/con arm,

this will be of interest to me as a complete new is an ARM!!!! and a LEG TEA HE

regards malcolm

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Martin,

I'll PM you regarding that replacement arm. or could you PM me with a contact number please? thanks.

regards Nigel.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

After being told by Malcom and Martin, I put the off side wishbone rear rubber mount on wrong the car has today gone over to Pleidies to have a new lower off side wishbone fitted by Martin(and yes I took some chocky biscuits with me).

But this has not resolved the vibration. after dropping the car off at 2pm I forgot to mention to Martin (pleidies) that the vibration only seems apparent during acceleration or when the engine is under load.

so when I got home about 4pm I telephoned Martin who had already fitrted the new lower wishbone and road tested the car, his initial comment was the wobble is bloody horrible, whilst at pleidies looking under the car with Martin it was decided that the donut lower engine mount behind the sump and next to the off side driveshaft could do with replacing, but we are not completely confident that it is this that is causing this nasty vibration. this was before Martin test drove the car.

Martin seemed concerned about the gearbox engine mount beneath the battery tray and I left him to poke and prod the car with his metal bar and hopefully he will find the source of this engine wobble, tyres have been elimated tracking is good, new front wheels are balenced ok. off side driveshaft bearing has no noise or apparent wear in it.

I believe that citroen did something wrong when my car went in for a new serpentine belt, then again my old mobile mechanic was a s*d for leaving bolts undone occassionally and he had the gerbox out to fit a new clutch, it would seem engine mount orrientated this wobble and if Martin at pleidies finds it he may have the answer to something a few of us have been searching for for a while, as Martin said he could tell you but then he might have to shoot you..lol. to keep it as a trade secret.

my Dads Xantia VSX does exactly the same thing 4th gear 40 mph front shakes under load.

Hopefully Martin at Pleidies will bring this matter to a close over the next couple of days and we shall have a definate posative answer to the problem. I however will ask if I can post it before I end up looking down the barrel of a gun.

regards nigel.