Starting problem

ThePriest · Post by **ThePriest** » 06 Jul 2009, 19:56

Xantia 1.9TD just started playing when starting. It is a bit unusual as when it does start it runs normally with no smoke or other problems.

When turning the key it is as if the engine is firing on one or two cylinders but takes a long while for all four to fire up. Normally it starts as soon as the key is turned. Just like removing two or three spark plug leads from a petrol if you understand my poor description.

I opened the drain on the filter housing and some very cloudy diesel emerged into the jar but then ran clear. It did start instantly then but when I Tried again today it was back to the same.

Does it need to be bled as when I press the black bulb I can see bubbles in the tube going from the filter to the punp? How would I do this? Any other suggestions?

It does this whether the engine is hot or cold.

Cheers

Post by **admiral51** » 06 Jul 2009, 20:10

Hi
As i understand it the xud bosch pump is self bleeding.The bubbles you see between the filter and the pump are an indication of air getting into the system somewhere and thus the extra cranking is the system purging itself of air.When you pumped the primer bulb you were manually bleeding the system and hence started as normal

Favourite place for air ingress are as follows
Leak off pipes and the blank. Fuel line/joints...Priming bulb (perishes)..Bottom of fuel filter housing

Its normally a case of trial and error.If you can replace the fuel pipe from priming bulb to filter with clear fuel line then you can start to see where the air is getting in ie before filter or after

As for the cloudy fuel have you changed the filter recently as this could be getting clogged

Im sure someone with more knowledge than me will be along soon

Colin

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 06 Jul 2009, 20:42

Try anywhere that sells fish tanks, the airlines with about a 6mm diameter worked for me.

Post by **admiral51** » 06 Jul 2009, 20:45

Hi Mike

When i had to replace mine i took a length of original pipe with me to Here.
Not sure if i have any left in shed will have a look later.
Its braided hose that any good Hydraulic/Hose specialist should have

Colin

ThePriest · Post by **ThePriest** » 06 Jul 2009, 20:46

Just tried pressing the black bulb untill it went solid ish. She started up perfectly then. So I will try changing the filter tomorrow and go from there. Thanks for the help so far. It seems unusual for it to go so suddenly though I must say.

Post by **admiral51** » 06 Jul 2009, 20:51

ThePriest wrote: It seems unusual for it to go so suddenly though I must say.

Not at all unusual

Its just that over time the leakoff pipes goes brittle and crack and let a little air into the system which the Bosch pump can live with but then the leaks get bigger and we notice it when the damn thing wont start although it did perfectly the day before

Colin

ThePriest · Post by **ThePriest** » 06 Jul 2009, 21:24

Excuse my ignorance but which are the leakoff pipes and can they be easily replaced?

Post by **CitroJim** » 06 Jul 2009, 22:15

The leakoff pipes are the small black pipes daisy-chained between the injectors and back to the pump return line. You'll find the last injector has a blanking cap on the last leakoff spigot.

In fact, in my experience, it's this blanking cap that seems to be most often the culprit as it seems to like to split.

Most factors sell a leakoff pipe set which uuually comprises a metere or so of the correct pipe and a couple of blanking cap. I used such a kit on my 2.1TD and the blanking cap failed after 5 months. My preferred blaning cap nowadays is a short piece of pipe doubled over on itself and bound tightly with a couple of ty-raps (cable ties)

Colin is dead right, they do seem to let go suddenly.

Another favourite place for air ingress is around the white thermostat visible on the base of the fuel filter at about 9 o'clock as you look from above. In fact if this is the culprit you may see a tiny weep of diesel around it when you pump the priming bulb.

ThePriest · Post by **ThePriest** » 07 Jul 2009, 14:47

OK Pipes checked and are OK. New filter fitted and no bubbles can be seen now. Same problem persists though. Just like a petrol firing on one or two cylinders but not getting quite enough to fire on them all. Took ages and the spare battery to get it going today.

Post by **CitroJim** » 07 Jul 2009, 16:47

This almost sounds like a lack of compression when the engine is stone cold. Are you sure there's no white/grey smoke when cranking to indicate no or poor combustion?

If so, then it is worth a check of the valve clearances when cold as a quirk of the XUD is that the valve clearannces are tightest when the engine is cold and they open up as it warms. If the clearances are marginal when warm, they will be sufficiently tight to hold the valves off the seats when cold and severely reduce compression.

You've checked or replaced the glowplugs I take it as these are essential both hot or cold. Another quirk is that an IDI engine like the 1.9TD needs preheating even if fully hot to start.

Otherwise, you still have an air leak that is allowing fuel to drain right back. The Bosch pump has its feed passage into the HP pumping element right at the top of the pump and it is essential for the pump body to be absolutely full of fuel to enable a start. It does not take much of an air leak to cause the fuel to syphon back and drop the fuel level in the pump...

ThePriest · Post by **ThePriest** » 08 Jul 2009, 14:46

Thanks again. I haven't done the plugs so that is next. Is there a way to test to see which are bad or do I just replace them all? access does not look easy

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jul 2009, 15:00

I always replace them wholesale. To test them they have to be removed so they may as well be replaced. You can do a resistance check on them but that really tells you very little.

You can test them by carefully operating them from a spare battery. Hold the plug in a pair of plier as they get hot! Take care not to short-circuit the battery.

Good ones will soon glow brightly at the tip. They stay hot a long time after this test.

Replace with BERU GN909 from GSF. I find them excellent.

The tools you need for this job is a 12mm cranked ring spanner and an 8mm ring spanner. I find Blu-Tak is good for holding the electrical connection nuts and stuff loads of rag down behind the injection pump to prevent escapees hiding down there. I've had several pumps off and found stray glowplugs in residence there

It's not such a bad job really, especially for the potential good results. Just be patient and take your time.

bonnyman750 · Post by **bonnyman750** » 09 Jul 2009, 07:32

Hi Roger,

as Colin (Admiral51)has said above, a common place often overlooked for air getting into the system is the bottom of the fuel filter housing. On the bottom left rear of the fuel filter housing, there is a white piece of plastic poking out from behind a star washer. This is the end of a type of sensor (thermostat?) in the filter housing. With the engine off, try squeezing the priming bulb until solid then, while looking at the white end of the sensor at the bottom left rear of the fuel filter housing, keep squeezing the bulb. I had a problem with air getting into the system and it was the 'O' rings on the sensor body which had gone hard and flat and were letting air in. By overpressurising the filter housing it forced diesel out from between sensor and housing, which formed a small puddle on the casting behind it. The cure was to remove the housing from the engine, extract the star washer and pull out the white plastic unit. carefully remove the 'O' rings and take them to your nearest bearing/seal stockists and match them up with new rings, as Citroen only supply the complete unit
Hope this makes sense and it helps you...

Glyn

a4gom · Post by **a4gom** » 13 Jul 2009, 11:50

My old fella's '98 xantia 1.9TD has similar problems with the starting, he had the glow plugs replaced and it made virtually no difference. If the car isn't run every day chances are it won't start next time you come to it without needing a boost on the battery.
Reading this thread and knowing his symptoms it looks as though an air leak is probably the culprit. Previously I have pumped the bulb up before starting and it has started a little better but not brilliant. If I pump it up till it goes solid the pipes which I think you are calling the leak off pipes leak diesel out! I said this can't be right and he queried it at the garage but they said it was ok?? Is it or is this likely to be his problem?

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 13 Jul 2009, 18:18

a4gom wrote:....If I pump it up till it goes solid the pipes which I think you are calling the leak off pipes leak diesel out! I said this can't be right and he queried it at the garage but they said it was ok?? Is it or is this likely to be his problem?

It's not ok otherwise they wouldn't have come from the factory air-tight. Get them changed and the starting should improve, they're inexpensive which is probably why the garage didn't want to bother doing them.