4HP20 is it really that bad?

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Sid_the_Squid
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4HP20 is it really that bad?

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Hey all,
Has anyone got something good to say about the ZF 4HP20?

All I seem to read is about how they fail and how unreliable they are, I've read CitroJims 4hp20 rebuild blog and whilst its absolutely fascinating, and looks like a whole lot of fun, its frightened me, is my car destined to die a horrible death due to inevitable gearbox fail?

I know theres a few on here with this type of box, whats your experience? on your first gearbox? or a recon?, how many miles did you manage? how regularly did you service?
etc..

Turns out I really love my new V6, so much so that I'm almost afraid to drive it in case it dies... man that sounds daft.

Sadly I don't have the space or the skill to do what Jims doing with his 4hp20, although I wish I did.

Anyway I would love to hear any good stories that you have to tell.
For the record the box is on 115k on my car, with a oil change recorded at 80k, and one I just did last Saturday.
Gone to the dark side.

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Post by CitroJim »

Hi Sid,

There is no doubt, sadly, that the 4HP20 is a bit of a time-bomb but the news is not necessarily bad. My 'box went to 159K before dying and xantia_v6 has one on 140K and healthy whereas I've heard of them letting go as early as 80K. In discussing this issue with xantia_v6 there appears to be a relationship between how the car is used and gearbox life. One used extensively on motorways seems to last longer than one frequently used in town work where the 'box is constantly changing gear.

The 4HP20, as you will have seen, has the achilles heel of being sealed for life and not being fully drainable. If you could fully drain it and replace the filter easily, I reckon, due to the beautiful engineering in the 'box as a whole, that it would go on for ever. Mine at 159K had very little wear really and it's death I still think can be attributed to a blocking filter and possibly oil overheating due to cooling issues. Even the failure of the SIV valve spring I reckon can be attributed to low oil pressure as a result of a blocking filter over time as a natural result of shed friction material; even my 40K spares donor had a nice black coating of dust in it.

It is such a shame that the gearbox is so inaccessible and requires the engine out to get at it as once the engine is out, it is not hard at all to split the 'box and inspect it and replace (if necessary) a few frictions and the filter. I maintain that if the car is good, and yours clearly is, it would be well worth biting the bullet and having the gearbox overhauled. They do take up a lot of space when in bits and as I say, it's not hard and needs no special tools unless you go as deep as I have and I know now that it's generally not necessary to go that deep on an overhaul of a working 'box.

Also, keep the cooling system in top condition as there is a bit of a suggestion that heat kills them. The 4HP20 is used in many other vehicles and the internals are common to a lot of ZF 'boxes that are all far more long-lived that when it's in the Xantia :twisted: It does run hot and there's not a lot of ventilation available.

Change the oil as soon as you can and enjoy that car of yours. Don't see the gearbox as a Sword of Damacles dangling over it...

Just keep an ear out for whines and if it does, stop immediately and get the 'box sorted before damage is done. Also, keep an eye on the smell of the oil. If it changes from smelling like cat's pee to overdone toast, take quick action!
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Sid_the_Squid
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Thanks Jim,
I tend to suffer bouts of paranoia about random things, I think this was the case after reading about the 4HP20 issues which a lot of people experience. I'm feeling a bit calmer about it all now. :)

I'm going to be doing a couple more box oil changes over the coming weeks, to try and overcome the 'partial change' issue. Thankfully the oil which came out of the box last weekend was looking fairly golden still, and that distinct smell, defiantly a wiff of cats waste product. Secret ingredients? :lol:
If you could fully drain it and replace the filter easily, I reckon, due to the beautiful engineering in the 'box as a whole, that it would go on for ever.
I could not agree more, one of my previous cars was an FTO, the autobox (INVECS 2) has an external screw type oil filter, like an engine oil filter, very easy to change oil and filter. When I sold the car it had over 260k kilometers on it. Fantastic auto box, and engine, shame about the suspension though ;)
Don't see the gearbox as a Sword of Damacles dangling over it...
Nice analogy :)

As always Jim, I am in your debt. :D
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
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Post by myglaren »

one of my previous cars was an FTO
Always fancied an FTO. Can't be a midlife crisis thing as I am well past that.

Almost bought one when I was getting the C5 but chickened out.
Hard to get ladders, furniture, washing machines and the like in the boot :P
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Post by CitroJim »

myglaren wrote:
Always fancied an FTO.
They look great :lol: I know a lad who has one.

Any truth in their nickname: FTSlow?
Jim

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Post by myglaren »

CitroJim wrote:
myglaren wrote:
Always fancied an FTO.
They look great :lol: I know a lad who has one.

Any truth in their nickname: FTSlow?
Not that I am aware of. Not as quick as the GTO of course. Guy who used to live next door has a mint L-reg GTO. Flash git.
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

I would not call an FTO slow, whilst not being the fastest in their class, not as fast as say a mk4 prelude, their pretty rapid, I believe average 1/4 mile in 15.9 for a stock 2.0 GR, thats the 2.0 V6 without variable valve timing.

The 0-60 figures quoted on the internet are all over the place, I've seen claims of <7 seconds, but most seem to indicate 8.5~9 is closer to the truth, certainly from my experience I'd say closer to 8.5 was probably about right.
With the GPX (thats the one with MIVEC) being a wee bit faster, I should imagine manuals also being faster too.
Sadly my fto owners club login expired a while ago, so I cant confirm these figures.

When I first got my FTO tried to drag against a friend in his Capri, he thrashed me, as it was a 2.8 injection special, less BHP but much much more torque, and a manual.

They certainly do look the part, very stylish, would have one again, if only for a weekend fun car...

...oh wait I've got a V6 Xantia now :D who needs any other car...
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
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'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
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Post by CitroJim »

Sid_the_Squid wrote:...oh wait I've got a V6 Xantia now :D who needs any other car...
Absolutely!
Jim

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Post by citrov6 »

i am finding my self constantly thinking about this now that i have 2 of these. quite interested in reading your write up Jim, could you post a link if its not too much trouble? thanks
Love my black v6 xant - only one with cream coloured leather too!
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Post by XantiaMan »

FTO's are slow with the auto. a 'mate' of mine had a manual jobbie and 0-60 was in the mid 7's, engine is very sweet but low on torque and the gearing is too long for the powerband.
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Post by CitroJim »

citrov6 wrote: quite interested in reading your write up Jim, could you post a link if its not too much trouble? thanks
It is here

Prepare yourself for a looooonnnngg read though. 17 pages-worth and then when you have read that, have a read toward the end of my Blog where the story continues...
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Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Perhaps I'm looking back with rose tinted specs but I remember my FTO GR auto seeming quite fast, I'm sure I recall reading a majority of the FTO owners club 1/4 mile times being around 15.9 for the auto GPX, sadly my FTO OC login expired, all the track times are kept in members only area :(
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
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Post by citrov6 »

thanks Jim

just to confirm FTO's are slow, out ran one just speeding up from a stand still getting to motorway speed , came flying up to my tailgate much later after which i allowed it to pass :lol:
Love my black v6 xant - only one with cream coloured leather too!
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Post by andmcit »

When they're working, these boxes are totally brilliant - the one on my car
has been a revelation and altered my jaded outlook on all auto's. They are
so clever hitting the purple patch that the engine likes at 1800rpm.

I truly hate the stepped banded changes on the hp14 and hp18 boxes that are
so dependent on the prevailing numpties or speed limit - I can get so hacked
off not getting into top gear when every other idiot on the road has dropped
into top and is idling along with their brain in neutral aiming to get the magic
60mpg. Having root canal work would be preferable to constant frustration
piloting these godawful boxes.



Andrew


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andmcit
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Post by andmcit »

With my mind preoccupied with my non starting Xantia V6 I actually I forgot
to mention this piece of dynamite uncovered after pouring through all the
paperwork for the various cars this afternoon looking for info on immobilisers etc...
CITROEN U.K. LTD wrote:CITROEN XANTIA
RECALL OPERATION "XX6"

Dated 15 March 1999

Registration No: BLA BLA
VIN: yaddyaddayadda

Actually an R plate 1.9 TD Exclusive auto adaptive

Dear Sir/Madam,

Your Citroen Xantia, the details of which appear above, is subject to a recall for replacement of the torque convertor,
a part of the automatic transmission. This operation in necessary in order to ensure the long term reliability of the
transmission unit.

We request that you contact your local Citroen dealer as soon as possible to arrange for the work to be carried out. When
making the appointmtnt, please quote the operation reference XX6 and show this letter to your dealer when you
take your vehicle to him.

Your dealer will need the vehicle for up to two days, but he will do all he can to minimise the inconvenience caused.

If you have sold the vehicle it would assist us greatly if you would indicate this on the pre-paid card below, if possible
providing the name and address of the new owner in the spaces provided on the card, and return this card to us.

We regret any inconvenience this recall may cause you and thank you for your co-operation.

Yours faithfully.

J.C. Collis
After Sales Director



Citroen U.K. Ltd
:shock:

Wonder if all the cars got sorted then - evidence that CitUK knew these
were ticking bombs? Judging by the number of V6's and auto TD and 16v's
I'd bet there weren't many registered but the law of averages suggests
some wouldn't have got the treatment. The car this letter relates directly
to actually has a nice autobox - shame the bearing shells in the engine
are knocking horrendously badly when I bought the car for spares. :x

Andrew


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