Swapping a TCT engine for a 2.1 TD?

steelcityuk · Unread post by **steelcityuk** » 08 May 2009, 11:31

Hi All,

This is a parallel posting to one I've placed on new Club XM site. I hope no one minds but I thought that the expertise on this would be very helpful.

So here goes -

Has anyone attempted to fit a 2.1 TD into a petrol TCT?

I was thinking along the lines of a MOT failure 406 or Xantia as the doner car. Am I deluding myself into thinking it would be reasonably straight forward? Is the loom the same for TCTs and diesels does anyone know?

Oh yes one final question how do the 2.1 autos drive? I've had a 2.1 manual but not any diesel auto in any car. My left knee is becoming increasingly weak and I may have to go for an auto. What real MPG do the 2.1 autos give? Do the engine and box make a nice combination? I'm not worried about the failure aspects of the autobox, I own a Citroen after all!

Thanks in anticipation.

Steve.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 08 May 2009, 14:32

Hi Steve

This is a parralell reply

The autos drive very well but they are just not to my liking.

You would probably need an engine/gearbox from and XM because there are extras you would require from the donor car which you would have to source seperatly if you used an engine from a peugeot. Ask John (XMexclusive) he has dismantled more that anyone else I know.

Peter

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 08 May 2009, 14:47

Would it not be easier and less costly to sell your TCT and buy a 2.1 auto?

I dont think its ever an easy job turning a petrol car into a diesel, you will need everything out of the donor car, possibly even fuel pipes, pumps etc too. So you would ideally need an Xm 2.1 to use as a donor.

2.1TD Auto Xms are not all that rare, so ime sure you could find a working one to buy instead?

Does the TCTs MPG on LPG economy not make up for the difference between running a more economical diesel?

steelcityuk · Unread post by **steelcityuk** » 08 May 2009, 15:01

Hi Guys,

Hmm I'm unsure about autos too but if my knee continues to give me grief I'll either have to stop driving or go auto.

The reason for not just selling the car and buying another the difficulty I would have finding another that is in such good condition and low mileage. I haven't seen any that come close to mines 77K and that everything works on. Yes I could buy another heap and go through it all again but is that any less work than the engine swap? Also the hydraulics on mine are in great shape and as we know you can spend hundreds and months and still have a poor ride. Also there's the corrosion issue too.

As for the MPG on LPG how does 16 grab you? Yes it's only 48ppl litre but it still starts on petrol, the MPG is lower than petrol, boot space is limited by carrying the spare in there. etc.

It's not a decision to take lightly. If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to discourage me.

Steve.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 08 May 2009, 15:33

I know what you mean about finding a good one. I have looked at many and none have matched up to the original, unmessed with condition of the white one. I couldnt believe it when the silver one turned up, possibly one of the best original conditions around, superb. One needs to go however, there are just too many cars here now, its so difficult making the decision to let one go though.

So yes, once you have found one, and a good one, its hard to find another. Especially a diesel as they have often been to the moon and back again. You are more likely to find a good petrol.

16MPG is quite shocking, what does it do on petrol?

Our 2.0 16v Auto does around 30-34MPG if driven reasonably carefully. On a long drive, at sensible speeds - below the limit - it can achieve 38ish. The manaul does around 34-38, which isnt too bad at all. However the Xms are used very little around town, so that is usually out of town work.

An auto in an Xm suits the car quite well, although its not the best of autoboxes. It isnt as smooth as some can be and it wont change into top until 42mph. I cant really decide what i like driving best, the manual or auto, the auto is effortless, no stupid 4th pedal and its suits the car. IMO Xm manuals dont have the best gear change in the world, the clutch has a long travel too. Im used to the 4 peadls now, but i only ever use the handbrake to set off on the steepest of hills and in crawling traffic it cant be used. So if i had to choose id have an automatic Xm anyway! Afterall, you can decide when to change down, but it does the up changes.

The manual is nice though, its much more lively and you can drive it how you want, and not how the gearbox wants! I think im more taken with the car itself rather than the manual box though.

Swapping a car from manual to an auto will be no easy task, i wouldnt have thought. Yeah, i stand by what i said, your probably best looking out for a good 2.1 auto and parting with your TCT.

Chris.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 08 May 2009, 17:25

Hi Steve,

I'll also reply on Club-XM

I've looked into this in the past with a view to converting an Activa to 2.1TD power. A 2.1TD Activa was available on the continent but never here.

The 2.0TCT and the 2.1TD is a very similar engine and in fact, to all intents and purposes, the 2.0TCT is just a petrol verson of the same thing.

If you were sticking with the manual 'box, it would be a relative doddle mechanically. Going over to an autobox complicates matters a little.

Mechanically, all engine mounts are the same.

Electrically, things are a tad complicated as the looms will not be the same but the 2.1TD pump to ECU loom is stand-alone and the looms to the ancillaries will be the same. The Diesel ECU, assuming the 2.1TD has the excellent EPIC pump, is wired into the main loom in a similar way but you'd have to make some loom changes to accommodate the glow plug controller and the like. The 2.1TD ECU drives most of the instruments and you may run into issues with the tacho and speedo not working correctly.

Fuelling: The TCT will have a pump in-tank. That'll have to go and be replaced by a diesel pick-up. The existing fuel lines should be OK. The diesel exhaust will be needed.

Depending on what autobox you use will depend on what electrical work you need. I'm assuming a 4HP18 and not an electronic AL4. However, you'll ahve to arrange for start inhibit in anything but park and changes to the reversing light wiring. You'll also need to install the auto gear select lever.

The autobox uses different driveshafts but I'll take a guess and say the hubs are the same.

If the donor engine is a manual, then you'll need the flywheel and flex-plate to suit the gearbox.

A lot to do but quite possible, if not time-consuming. A complete donor is almost essential for all the small bits you'll need.

The biggest issue by far though is insurance. It'll be a modified car and they'll sting you hard.

On balance, the best advice has already been given. Look for a good, tidy 2.1 Auto.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 08 May 2009, 17:44

I would have no hesitation in buying a manual 2.1 with in excess of 200k on the clock, providing it had been reasonably well cared for, but the auto is a different kettle of fish, unless you can find a low mileage example or one with a replacement box its a risky undertaking, just as finding a good engine and box for transplant would be.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 08 May 2009, 18:49

Thats true Peter, if an autobox goes wrong then it will get costly.

Although you do see 2.1 autos with lots of miles, so as long as the box is working correctly on purchase, and you do frequent gearbox oil changes, maybe use some gearbox oil treatment, as i do, and that should prelong the box. If it goes wrong, then the hunt will be on for a replacement box, or take it to a specialist - probably costly.

Although its what might need to be done to keep them going, if everyone stayed clear of high mile 2.1 autos they would soon die out.

Low mile 2.1 autos do crop up, did anyone see the silver M reg recently, with around 50K miles. For a staggering £3000!

I notice the low mileage late 2.1 auto WHM was selling is now changed to sold, that was up for £5000. Maybe Xm prices are due to rise!

xmexclusive · Unread post by **xmexclusive** » 11 May 2009, 00:56

Hi Steve

Ciaran on new Club-xm has a 2.1 XM that was previously a 2.0 but the engine swap was already done when he got the car. He seems very happy with a great car though he has reported the odd anomaly every now and again which perhaps may be due to loose ends from the conversion. It was a manual to manual swap though.

I do not think the insurance will be an issue or extra cost item provided that the engine, box and fuel changes are registered fully with the DVLA. Standard Citroen components are being changed that alter the car to a different XM model. Conversion is where non-standard components are fitted.

As far as the logistics of the swap are concerned I think the key factors are sourcing a satisfactory donor car, the few weeks carless time
that the conversion takes and of course the space to store the work in progress. I doubt that sourcing all the needed bits from other PSA vehicles will prove much cheaper or easier than searching out a good complete 2.1 auto XM. Sadly most secondhand engines seem to improve in quality when offered for sale and a recovered autobox will always be a lottery with few winners however good the provenance.

Overall I guess I would prefer to sort a nearly right bought in 2.1 XM rather than risk the much greater work and expertise needed to make the swap a success.

John

DoubleChevron · Unread post by **DoubleChevron** » 11 May 2009, 06:33

Have you ever driven a 2.1TD with a slugomatic gearbox ?? If not I suggest you try one first....... They are a little.... well a LOT

The also use quite a bit of fuel around town. Ours generally gets 30mpg around town (yeah I know the V6 would be 15mpg), but we never get even remotely close the the 40+mpg other poeple on the XM forum claim (maybe 42mpg if it's all highway, but around town... high 20's, low 30's).

I have no doubts the 2.1TD with a proper gearbox would be a vastly nicer car than with the slugomatic (and probably return much better fuel economy).

seeya,
Shane L.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 11 May 2009, 09:56

...a lot better economy, 50 mpg+ driven sensibly.

DoubleChevron · Unread post by **DoubleChevron** » 11 May 2009, 10:18

Peter.N. wrote:...a lot better economy, 50 mpg+ driven sensibly.

Wouldn't get that off a cliff face with a tail wind. Possibly 42mpg tops on the highway. I imagine the slugomatic will effect fuel economy, but it shouldn't make a huge difference on the highway.

The old bosch mechanical pump must kill the ecomony possibly... I seriously can't see a 1.5ton+++ car returning 50mpg

seeya,
Shane L.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 11 May 2009, 10:40

DoubleChevron wrote:I seriously can't see a 1.5ton+++ car returning 50mpg

Believe us they do Shane

I can get over 50mpg from my 2.1TD Xantia estate no trouble at all on a run. Around town it's not much worse; 46 - 47 MPG and that's not bad for an old-school IDI diesel in a heavy car.

My 2.1TD has the electronic Lucas EPIC pump but I believe Peter's has the Bosch mechanical pump. Going by what Peter achieves, the pump is not a factor in the economy.

What "slugomatic" does your 2.1 have Shane? The mechanical ZF 4HP18 or the auto-adaptive AL4? Seems the later electronic autoboxes do reap economy rewards; the V6/4HP20 combination returns quite respectable economy considering...

steelcityuk · Unread post by **steelcityuk** » 11 May 2009, 10:48

I used to get 42MPG from the 2.1 TD I had. That was loads od short journeys around town. It was a nice car except for the heavy clutch and the rust...

I think after all the answers I may be better waiting for a nice 2.1 to come along. It would be nice to convert mine due to it's condition but if it alters the insurance then I doubt it would be worth it.

Did any 2.1 use the auto adaptive box? Does this box have an ECU built in or is in the cabin?

Sorry for all the stupid questions.

Steve.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 11 May 2009, 12:45

steelcityuk wrote: Did any 2.1 use the auto adaptive box? Does this box have an ECU built in or is in the cabin?

I think, but may be well off the mark, that they used the ZF 4HP18 which is a mechanical Auto and thus no ECU. If the 'box does have an ECU, it'll likely be under the battery tray as that's where it is in the Xantia. Silly place to locate it really