V6 Timing Belt Tensioner Question

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 27 Apr 2009, 20:05

Back to working on my favourite subject now

This evening I removed the cambelt (full photo guide to follow both on here and Club-XM) to check the condition of the tensioners and the water pump as I'm soon to submit a (large) spares order.

Firstly, I found the pump and tensioners in very good condition and as they're on my car I'll risk just changing the cambelt. The service history is right in that the job was done not that long ago

However, I found the cambelt tensioner was nothing like the one in the manual for the earlier ES9J4 engine

It's an eccentric tensioner rather than the rather complex dynamic tensioner that was originally fitted. It looks like this:

Digging around, I find it is the type of tensioner used on the later ES9J4S engine fitted to the C5.

Is this a recognised modification to the earlier engine? If it is then good as it makes the cambelt so much easier to tension as you just line up two marks on the tensioner rather than needing a SEEM gauge or guesswork.

John (jgra1), did your V6 engines have this type of tensioner?

Granted the engine is out and I have plenty of space to work but doing a V6 cambelt with the later tensioner at least is not that difficult. I'm currently at a loss to see why so much money is charged to do this job by a dealer

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 27 Apr 2009, 20:25

Make sure you're sitting down before you read further, just the cost of the parts for mine was £470

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 27 Apr 2009, 20:31

DickieG wrote:just the cost of the parts for mine was £470

That's staggering Richard

Glad most of my stuff will do another turn then

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 27 Apr 2009, 20:34

CitroJim wrote:Glad most of my stuff will do another turn then

Literally

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 28 Apr 2009, 00:21

Jim I do know there were two different tensioners for the D8 and D9 v6 Pug coupes.. Mine was certainly the earlier version and from a quick glance does look different to yours...

So, if true, citroen used the early engine and a later tensioner it seems...

coupe forum has a good 'how to' on later VVT-engine belt replacement.. have a shifty at that to see if the same as yours...

Mine did have some complex object that needed various bolts inserted to tension the belt...

Follow the route of the 2 metre belt... love them or hate 'em, belts do get around a few problems...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2fj8MH_LeQ0/S ... ollers.jpg

from memory I could not get all 4 cams to line up perfectly.. in the end I had to adjust each sprocket on the back two cams to get all four to line up
turning the belt and three camshafts, fourth locked but pulley turning, until they all matched and the final pin went home.. I did spend a fair while on this , even with engine out
8)

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 28 Apr 2009, 00:36

comparing the pics side by side your tensioner is much simpler.

looking at my cam slots and thinking about it, maybe I should revisit cam timing on the back camshaft at some point in the future....

...can I not 'pin' all 4 sprockets and crank, and turn all camshafts in the same position, i.e. at the beginning (or end) of their travel? I did once hear this was a simple route to a few horses...

its quite late so I may have to review this tomorrow ...

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 28 Apr 2009, 06:24

Thanks John,

Yours does have the earlier tensioner arrangement and is a lot more complex...

According to the book, there is a complex procedure to get all four cams in time. It seems you start off with all four sprockets fully anti-clockwise in their slots with all four cams pinned and the bolts just nipped up but not enough to prevent a bit of movement to allow the sprockets to move a little (whilst the cams themselves are still pinned) to get the belt sitting right.

The book goes on to say if at first you don't succeed....

I'm sure the later VVT tensioner arrangement on the earlier engine is FTW. It seems so much easier than the old one and no tensioning guesswork

For the record, correct tension on the belt appears to be an ability to be able to twist the run from the crank sprocket to the first jockey on the front bank through 45 degrees as in this picture..

I'll be practicing refitting the belt this evening and will report back

Good game

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 28 Apr 2009, 08:10

Hi Jim,

yep that's pretty much how I tensioned it

I remember the manual mentioning all all slots being in a certain position.. I did try this a few times, then for some reason or other I ended up manually adjusting a couple..time was dragging on ...

FrenchLeave · Unread post by **FrenchLeave** » 28 Apr 2009, 19:35

For comparison, here are a couple of shots of the front end of my "spare" VVT engine.

Main point of note is the VVT fitting on the front of the two inlet camshafts.

I checked the timing on this engine and found that three of the camshafts were out by several degrees. Timing is straightforward; slacken the four bolts that join each camshaft to its pulley, pin the camshaft part of the pulley and the rotate the drive part to mate with the belt teeth.

I think that the high price charged by garages is probably because they will change the water pump and all pulleys for safety whilst they're in there

Derek

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 28 Apr 2009, 20:38

So what's your plans for this "spare" engine then Derek?

Presumably if you wanted to drop it in the XM you'd have to use the ECU that belongs with this engine so that the VVT would work...

Can VVT be retrofitted to the earlier engine?

I did a trial refit of the cambelt and it went on very smoothly first time. I set all the cam sprockets fully anti-clockwise in their slots and fed the belt from the crank sprocket and up onto the front bank cam sprockets, keeping the belt taut on this part of the run all the time, then round the valley jockey and over the rear bank sprockets and back down. Refitted and adjusted the tensioner until the pointer lined up with the mark.

Not a problem with the engine out but I reckon with the engine in place it would be a slightly different matter

FrenchLeave · Unread post by **FrenchLeave** » 28 Apr 2009, 23:35

It's a long story Jim (as all my stories seem to be). My XM has done 72k so it's coming up to the scheduled belt change, however I convinced myself that there's a probable safety factor of say 50% built into the belts and with the reduced milage I do in retirement I decided to leave well alone.

Then I started to worry, so when the opportunity came to buy this engine at a very reasonable price I took it - just as a standby you understand

, but with the niggling thought that it might be fun to try to fit it.

Of course you hit the nail on the head, the corresponding ECU is a must, not only to control the valve timing but also the new fuel injection and the individual coils that fit directly onto the plugs.

All is not lost however, at the very least I now have a spare alternator, starter motor and a/c compressor - and much to my surprise, stuck on the end was a 4HP20 autobox

.

In the event that I succeed in wrecking my existing engine I think that it may be viable to fit the VVT with the old inlet camshafts, fuel injection and ignition systems, or if I'm really lucky I may locate an ECU!

Anyway, it's all good fun and I can practice on it. And I'm going to follow you in stripping the autobox.

Derek

Unread post by **xantia_v6** » 16 Jun 2009, 21:49

recycling the thread...

I intend to do a Xantia V6 timing belt in the next few weeks. I have shopped around and have got a belt, (later) tensioner, idlers and waterpump all for under £200.

Can anyone give me an aftermarket part number for the Auxiliary belt?
Is there anything else I should buy in preparation?
Has anyone got a timing pin kit I can borrow?

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Jun 2009, 13:12

Hi Mike,

The aux. belt is a 6PK1625 as far as I recall. I'll check for sure later.

Buy a good supply of PERCY WATSIT

No, seriously, I'd consider buying the later automatic tensioner from the ES9J4S engine as it's a LOT easier to adjust and set up than the earlier dynamic tensioner.

Pins are no issue, drill bits of 8mm (I think - again I'll check) will do fine. You'll need five. The fifth being for the crank pully. the timing hole is on the pulley hub and visible when the outer pully (four studs) is removed.

What you do need is a tool to enable the cam sprockets to be rotated. The official tool is a pronged job that engages in slots in the inner camwheels but a suitable alternative can be easily fabricated. You'll need this tool to enable the cam wheels to be rotated just the tad they need to go into perfect time and allow the locking pins to be inserted after you've unlocked the outer sprocket verniers.

After that, just rotate all outser sprockets to their fulles extent anticlockwise again the vernier slots, slip ont he new belt, line up the tensioner arrows and job done.

One thing you'll need to do is remove the RH engine mount completely if you plan to replace the water pump and indeed, if you don't, it'll still make the job easier. You then have the problem of supporting the engine. Best way is with a crane attached to the four lifting eyes and in this way you can lift the engine out slightly for even better access. If you do this, set the suspension on Low so that the whole car does not try to rise as you lift the engine up.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 18 Jun 2009, 07:03

Mike,

The Aux. belt is a 6PK1625 and the timing pins are 8mm. Just checked.

Unread post by **xantia_v6** » 18 Jun 2009, 08:46

Thanks Jim.

I will tackle this one weekend soon when I am not otherwise occupied.

I am not sure whether I need a tool to turn the cams. I don't have facilities to fabricate one (unless it can be made from a bock of wood and a few screws).

jgra1 wrote: coupe forum has a good 'how to' on later VVT-engine belt replacement.. have a shifty at that to see if the same as yours...

Can someone post a link to that, google did not seem to jump straight to it...