C5 2.2 Hdi Swirl Valve Actuator

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cachaciero
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C5 2.2 Hdi Swirl Valve Actuator

Unread post by cachaciero »

Has anybody ever changed one of these with the engine in situ?
If so I would be very appreciative of an explanation of how to get at the thing, after a day grovelling around underneath trying to get to the thing from underneath (and in the process discovering other things that I really didn't want to know about :-( ) and skinning my hands trying to reach it from the top I am a little stumped. I suspect that I am going to have to strip a lot of stuff of the engine to get at it but before I start this it would be nice to know what exactly from someone who has the T shirt :-)

Regards Cachaciero
cachaciero
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Unread post by cachaciero »

Guess that's a no then :-)

However not to worry job done thanks to some info from the mechanics at my local Citroen Dealer. See they arn't all bad :-)

cachaciero
cachaciero
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Sequel

Unread post by cachaciero »

The reason for changing the swirl valve diaphragm was because of a vacuum leak which in turn caused Turbo Overboost and the dreaded ESP/ASR anti pollution fault scenario which many C5 owners have experienced.

I stripped the failed unit and found that the rubber diaphragm had no less than 5 pin hole leaks all along a fold line.

This unit had done 90K miles there was nothing untoward in terms of contamination grit or anything else which could have caused this failure, therefore I am of the opinion that this failed for "normal" wear and tear reasons.

On this basis I would believe that any 2.2Hdi with this swirl diaphragm and mileage in the region of 70K plus is almost certainly well on the way to having this failure which will as a consequence also cause failure of the turbo control system with attendant messages.

Cachaciero
fred1
Posts: 167
Joined: 28 Oct 2005, 16:59

Unread post by fred1 »

Hi,

Would be very helpful if you could share the info you were given by your local Cit dealer mechanics.

Regards

John
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

cachaciero,
is it possible to post or PM me any instructions or pics so that i can check my diaphragm personally. In the mean time, i will do that other check that you mentioned.
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
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How to Check the Turbo and Swirl Valve control C5 2.2. HDI

Unread post by cachaciero »

corsehf wrote:cachaciero,
is it possible to post or PM me any instructions or pics so that i can check my diaphragm personally. In the mean time, i will do that other check that you mentioned.
Hi corsehf

Hope that this helps :-)

INTRO

The proper way of checking this system really requires a vac gauge and ideally a vac pump. Gunson do a vac gauge for about £20.00 guess this would probably do ideally you need a calibration in Milli Bars saves having to do conversions.
Getting the swirl valve diaphragm out just to look at it is a pig of a job and dismantling the swirl valve actuator to look at the diaphragm risks breaking the actuator as it is not designed to be dismantled.

SYSTEM DESCRIPTION

The turbo turbine is modulated by a diaphragm type actuator mounted on the Turbo,
this diaphragm connects to a piece of hard plastic pipe using a silicon rubber coupler. The plastic pipe runs upstairs to the turbo electrovalve (RH side looking in from front under the scuttle panel adjacent to suspension sphere ) where another rubber coupler connects it to the valve. Other side of this EV runs to the vacuum reservoir which is under the brake servo.
This vacuum reservoir is common to the swirl valve system and is fed from the engine driven vac pump through a small restrictor. There is a plastic pipe which runs forward from the reservoir to the swirl valve electrovalve (EV) to which it is connected on the top by a piece of curved silicon tubing. The supply from the side of the EV runs back to the swirl valve actuator hidden underneath the air ducting and the EGR pipe.

TEST PROCEDURE

To test the system a vac gauge needs to be connected into the system, I used some small plastic hose couplers purchased from B&Q and piece of suitable sized plastic pipe.
Removing the coupler on the TOP of the swirl valve EV connect a T piece into the silicon elbow a short length of pipe from the T piece to the top of the EV the other arm of the T piece is connected to the vac gauge.

Run the engine with a good system the gauge should fall to about 200 mBars absolute at idle anything more than this and there is a leak.

Lets assume a vacuum of 800mBars i.e a leaking system, disconnect the plastic pipe from the top of the EV and place your finger over the open end of the pipe if the vacuum now increases to 200 mBars then this would indicate a leak between the EV and the swirl diaphragm and /or the diaphragm itself.
To eliminate a problem with the EV connect the pipe that comes out of the side of the EV directly to the piece of plastic piping attached to the T piece and check the vac levels again if values still high then the only thing left is the swirl diaphragm AND the rubber connector that connects the plastic pipe to it.
I have assumed that the plastic pipe is relatively bulet proof and that it is unlikely that this will leak.

If this does not change the vacuum then the leak is likely on the turbo side, again the same procedure can be used breaking the system down at the T urbo EV and inserting the T piece and vac gauge.

With good vacuum the operation of the Turbo diaphragm may be checked by linking the vac input to the EV directly to the output to the turbo doing this you can observe the operation of the actuator from underneath the car.

If it is shown that the system is leaking then the first thing to check are the associated rubber pipe couplers. There is quite a bit of documented evidence that splitting of these rubber joiners is quite common so it pays to check them carefully. In my case not only did I have five holes in the swirl diaphragm but the rubber connector to the assembly was also split.

I would suggest that a couple or three of these rubber couplers are on hand before starting the exercise.

Changing the swirl valve diaphragm.


This requires removal of thefollowing:-

1 air filter box (top). (To gain access )
2 EGR pipe approx 1 inch dia stainles pipe that runs from back of engine to inlet manifold.
3 Breather pipe1 inch approx that goes into the head.
4 metal bracket that support pipe work (EGR pipe) (will lose a little water when removing this)

This will give access to the three TorqX screws that hold the swirl actuator in, they can be reached with a T20 bit on a long extension bar. Diaphragm re-moved and re-fitted from underneath. Car needs to be on ramps or axle stands.

Materials
1 Jubilee clip to replace clip on breather system.
2 Manacle clamp for coupling EGR pipe to water jacket at back of engine this is a service part as the old clamp will not be re-usable.
3 Diaphragm.
4 Suggest a couple of spare screws as they are quite easy to lose.

Cachaciero
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

cachaciero, very in depth instructions. Do you have any pics to go with the instructions so as we know what we are looking for whilst underneath the car. As you say, there is not much room underneath and difficult to get hands /arms up through what gaps there are.
Seems almost easier to drop the engine and do all your servicing in one go.
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
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Unread post by cachaciero »

corsehf wrote:cachaciero, very in depth instructions. Do you have any pics to go with the instructions so as we know what we are looking for whilst underneath the car. As you say, there is not much room underneath and difficult to get hands /arms up through what gaps there are.
Seems almost easier to drop the engine and do all your servicing in one go.
Hi Andy
No I do not have any underneath pics, you do need to remove the forward undertray, that's about 5 funny quick release screw things and 4 10 mm nuts it comes out quite easy.

There is no work to be done undernead as such, only when you undo the last screw holding the actuator it will likely fall out and down you then need to get underneath to fish it out. I reckon it MAY be possible to get the actuator out from the top by securing the arm and a bit of fiddling but I reckon it's likely just as quick taking the under tray off. Once it drops back it will be quite obvious what's what from underneath.

I did mine with a trolley jack on LH side to max height plus an axle stand for security but ramps make slightly more space available for crawling around.

One thing I didn't mention in the instructions before dropping the actuator you need to get your hand down and behind to remove the silicon rubber vac connector. This can be done from underneath but will require removing the rubber pipe from the base of the intercooler to the turbo to gain sufficient access to get your hand up unto the back of the swirl actuator. (Couple of jubilee clips and a securing bolt as I rememeber.

The Turbo control capsule is not difficult to identify when lying on your back looking up.

There are available on E Bay bootleg versions of Citroens EPC a late version of this has quite a comprehensive set of line drawings covering vaccuum checks, although my way is a little different not having Citroens expensive tools.

As regards dropping the engine once all the front stuff rads etc are out of the way it looks like one could could "wheel" the engine out on a couple of trolley jacks there being no front cross member on the subframe. It might be even easier to unbolt the subframe and wheel the whole lot out that way there is no requirement to break suspension joints down remove drive shafts etc.
On to the face of it it would appear to require steering column unbolted at the rack (easy) free up the top of each strut, disconnect hand brake cables undo exhaust and crossmember 5? bolts a handfull of pipe disconnections 6 bolts holding subframe on and it would appear that the whole lot could be wheeled away from the body. Only one biggy that I havn't sussed is electrics but that may well be one or two connectors.

BUT that is overkill to change the swirl valve diaphragm :-)

tony
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

cachaciero,
It may appear that you have solved my 'ESP / Anti-pollution' fault. I have done the first test by removing the vacuum pipes from the EV under the air intake and blocking them off. i have run the car now for several weeks and all appears fine except for the fuel consumption which is not as good!!
Do you have a part number for this 'Diaphragm' please??
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
x 9

Unread post by cachaciero »

corsehf wrote:cachaciero,
It may appear that you have solved my 'ESP / Anti-pollution' fault. I have done the first test by removing the vacuum pipes from the EV under the air intake and blocking them off. i have run the car now for several weeks and all appears fine except for the fuel consumption which is not as good!!
Do you have a part number for this 'Diaphragm' please??
Hi Andy

Like it when fact is reconciled with Theory :-)

Diaphragm 0363 87 cost £15.00 approx

suggest you buy a couple of 6920 A2 which are the mounting screws getting the screws out without loosing a couple is in the lap of the gods as is getting them back in :-) anyway I lost one doing mine.

Before you go the whole hog i would suggest that you check the rubber pipe that connects to the back of the diaphragm, mine was split and I have read of others reporting this, mind in my case the split rubber was not the whole story. You can get to it from underneath although you will have to remove one of the turbo air hoses to get to it (not a big job).

In the meant time if you tie the swirl valve closed (disconnect diaphragm) and put a tie wrap or bit of wire around the ball on the arm and any convenient adjacent structure such that the ball is in full forward this will put it in 0-2300 rpm mode, it should improve your low end markedly and fuel consumption a little, you will start to run out of steam at above 2500, but given todays traffic conditions this is unlikely to be a problem unless you do mainly motorway.

Cachaciero
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

Hello Tony,
As it was pouring down i thought i would get the front end under the garage door and have a good nose around what i could do or see.
Managed to dismantle a good way in to the job when i found several possible issues which i would like to ask you and / or anyone else who wants to chip in.

First thing i noticed was that the long steel EGR pipe that comes around to the intake from the back was bunged up solid.

Second thing was that when i tried to visually see the swirl diaphragm housing for the first time, i noticed a split vacuum pipe going into it.

Thirdly, when the car was at the Bosch specialist trying to cure this ESP / Anti-pollution fault, it seems he blocked off the 2 vacuum pipes running to the upper and lower valves on the air doser (plastic air intake).

I realise the split pipe on the diaphragm could be my main reason all along!! but would any of the other things that i have found have any detrimental effects on the cars running especially power and fuel consumption?? What effects would i get by the air doser valves being blocked and also the EGR pipe being blocked??
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

Incidently, i found some good images of this diaphragm housing on some French and Dutch sites:

http://www.c5club.nl/c5forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1269

http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/48258625.htm?ca=5_s
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
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Unread post by myglaren »

If I got completely legless I might just be able to comprehend that Dutch site :) *





* it is said that a Swede and a Dutchman can understand one another perfectly when they are both drunk, but of course can never recall the conversation the following day :)
cachaciero
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
x 9

Unread post by cachaciero »

corsehf wrote:Hello Tony,
As it was pouring down i thought i would get the front end under the garage door and have a good nose around what i could do or see.
Managed to dismantle a good way in to the job when i found several possible issues which i would like to ask you and / or anyone else who wants to chip in.

First thing i noticed was that the long steel EGR pipe that comes around to the intake from the back was bunged up solid.

Second thing was that when i tried to visually see the swirl diaphragm housing for the first time, i noticed a split vacuum pipe going into it.

Thirdly, when the car was at the Bosch specialist trying to cure this ESP / Anti-pollution fault, it seems he blocked off the 2 vacuum pipes running to the upper and lower valves on the air doser (plastic air intake).

I realise the split pipe on the diaphragm could be my main reason all along!! but would any of the other things that i have found have any detrimental effects on the cars running especially power and fuel consumption?? What effects would i get by the air doser valves being blocked and also the EGR pipe being blocked??
Yes my EGR pipe was pretty blocked up too although not solid, the only effect this would have would be with a cold engine which is IFAIK the only time the EGR really comes into play basically to help the engine warm up quicker, thinking about that it may also be activated during a FAP purge cycle to help increase the combustion temperature which is required to burn the carbon out of the FAP.

air doser not sure exactly to which bit you are refering, is the EGR related?.

I don't think that the EGR not working would increase fuel consumption or markedly reduce power.

However swirl valve operation does make quite a difference to both. With the swirl valve in it's default non operated condition both inlet valves are in play from 0 rpm. With the arm full forward one inlet valve is effectively taken out. Now being a diesel it's difficult to see that this should make a lot of difference but it does. With the arm fully forward you will find that from 0 to about 2K the engine picks up better and is more flexible, the fuel consumption in this rev range is better, however above about 2K the engine starts to run out of breath and I suspect that fuel consumption will be higher than it otherwise would be.

With mine and non functioning swirl valves I was getting about 27 mpg on mixed town and country journeys that I now get 31 mpg on with working valves.

Cachaciero
corsehf
Posts: 183
Joined: 13 Mar 2008, 07:34

Unread post by corsehf »

Cachaciero,
The 'Air Doser' is the black plastic twin air inlet fitted just in front of the inlet manifold. I got the name from an item being sold on ebay

(http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Citroen-C5-C8-2-2 ... 1|294%3A30)

Have put it all back together now and will try out later and report back.
Trying to sort out rear window now before the rain comes back (separate post)
Andy

2003 C5 2.2HDi Exclusive SE Est

2001 C5 2.2HDi SX Est (gone to C5 Heaven!)
2001 Omega 2.2DTi Est (stolen by Ex!!)
1997 Xantia 2.1TD SX
1994 ZX TD Volcane
Lancia Stratos Replica