XM 2.1TD - strange cooling system issue

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Ciaran
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XM 2.1TD - strange cooling system issue

Post by Ciaran »

Hi folks,

Wondering if someone can riddle me this.
My 2.1TD is having an odd issue where the coolant is being (slowly and constantly) ejected out the top of the reservoir. Now I know everyones thinking 'head gasket', but there are some other, odd factors which makes me think that's not it.

Basically, SWMBO phoned me one day during the week to say the water level warning had come on. I told her to stop and top up the level from the spare can of antifreeze I keep in the boot. She did so, finding the reservoir quite low. She filled it up, the light went off, and it seemed fine. That was Monday or Tuesday.
This morning, I took the car out, and I hadn't got to the end of the estate when the water level warning came on. I turned round and went straight back home. Upon opening the expansion cap, there was the usual slight spurt of water you get if you open it when hot, however it was by no means a torrent and no more than normal. Surprisingly, the reservoir was full of coolant, and wasn't empty at all. Strange I thought, must be a faulty sensor. I let the car run for 10 minutes, where it sat at a steady 90 degrees, the fans kicking in and out, and the water level didn't drop any.

I then went out on a short journey (about 3 miles at the most) to a friends house. I stayed there about 2 hours (so it would have cooled down), then came back home. Upon getting home, I though I'd just check the coolant level, and was horrified to find the reservoir empty besides a steamy froth, and the top radiator hose, though boiling hot, also felt empty when squeezed.
Strange I thought, and topped up the reservoir again. I ran the car for a good 10 minutes while I looked around and under the engine, and couldn't see any signs of a leak. The water level didn't drain this time. I didn't have time to mess about with it as I had to go out, so I turned it off and left it.

When I returned some 6 hours later, the water level in the reservoir hadn't dropped any. I started the car again. After a few minutes idling, I noticed the water level was gradually rising. It did this until it reached the top, where it constantly and slowly overflowed until the engine was stopped. Oddly if I revved it, the level would momentarily drop a few centimeters, but it always came back up.
The really strange thing, though the temp gauge on the dash was sitting about 80 degrees, the water in the reservoir was cold to the touch, I would say it wasn't even 15 degrees. Swishing my finger about in it I could feel some pockets of warm (perhaps from one of the returns), but the main body of water remained freezing.

After stopping the engine I noticed the top radiator hose was again empty when squeezed, I'm guessing this is because most of the water had been ejected out of the reservoir.

Now my initial thoughts on this were 'Oh balls, head gasket', but now I'm not so sure, for the following reasons:
  • 1 - The engine isn't overheating (barely gets to 90 degrees).
  • 2 - Rather than than the hoses going rock hard and pressurised, they go floppy and empty.
  • 3 - There's no steam of any kind out the exhaust.
  • 4 - The coolant and oil caps are both clean as a whistle, with no sign of any mayo type stuff.
  • 5 - The water in the reservoir stays cold.

It's almost as if there's a blockage of some kind, water seems to enter the reservoir but not leave it.

It could still be the head (really hope not) so I'll sniff test it, but the other symptoms may suggest something else.

Anyone got a thought on this?

Cheers

Ciarán
Last edited by Ciaran on 12 Apr 2009, 00:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by CitroJim »

I'm a bit tired to do a lot of serious thinking right now but it occurs that it will be worth initially checking the thermostat as the big oddity of the 2.1TD is its location (effectively) in the bottom hose. This odd place could result in some non-traditional symptoms if it were stuck closed especially as the 2.1TD runs so cool you might not see the temperature gauge giving the game away.

Sadly, the symptoms do also tally with the head gasket beginning to go although the floppy top hose is an odd one.

Have you tried running with the cap off to see what happens? If the head gasket is just on it's way, running with no cooling system pressure should result in no or only a little loss of water. Again, due to the unique 2.1TD cooling setup, you cannot look in the expannsion tank for streams of bubbles signifying a dying head gasket.

Is it easier to do a 2.1TD head in an XM or is it the same as in the Xantia - an engine out job?
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Post by myglaren »

An airlock in the system somewhere - have you bled the whole system with the engine running. May be necessary to bodge up a header tank over the filler yo get enough height for the coolant. and old plastic pop bottle with the bottom removed is the usual way to go.
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Post by Ciaran »

Many thanks for the replies Jim and Steve.

To answer a few questions, yes the water (slowly) overflows at a steady rate with the cap removed. It never gushes out though, and its cold (not even mildly warm).

Silly question time, what the bleeding procedure for the 2.1, and indeed, where are the bleed screws? I've never actually spotted them, and Mr Haynes doesn't seem to mention them.
After giving it a lot of thought, I now do believe its an airlock, or the thermostat stuck closed, and will certainly approach these two before I find a quiet corner somewhere to rock and cry about headgaskets...

Cheers :)

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Post by CitroJim »

I can only speak of the Xantia 2.1TD Ciarán and the only bleed screw it has is a tyre cap on the heater matrix elbow and that's only needed if the matrix ( :evil: :evil: :evil: ) is replaced.

There is no need to bleed it at all in the Xantia as it's fully self-bleeding by virtue of the header tank being on the bulkhead and well above the highest part of the cooling system. Just leave off the cap and it looks after itself..

If the tank is well above the highest point on the XM, the same will apply.
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Post by Peter.N. »

Hi Ciaran

The 2.1 is pretty well self bleeding, that was the purpose of fitting the thermostat in the return pipe, the top end of the engine is open to the radiator at all times allowing the air to escape into the resevoir. Does sound like the head gasket I'm afraid. I have never known the thermostat to fail closed, they usually fail open. The only other possibility is the water pump, but normally they just leak.

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Post by ken newbold »

I seem to remember a long thin pipe coming up from the thermostat with a tyre valve cap type thing to bleed the thermostat, it was very concealed behind the head.
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Post by hobblerian »

There is a bleed for the coolant betweeen the engine and bulkhead drivers side on my 2.1td, it's on a U shaped pipe about an inch in dia. sitting at top/back of the engine. It's has a plastic screw in the pipe. Just undo it a turn or so and it should bubble out.
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Post by Ciaran »

Hi folks,

Many thanks for all the replies.

Well, I found the bleed screw, can't believe I missed it all this time! :lol:
Cheers for the pointers :)

I also spent most of today removing and refitting the thermostat. My, that's a special one even by Citroen standards isn't it... in fact I think I have to say its probably the single most idiotic bit of automotive design I've ever seen, from a placement point of view anyway. I can see Peter's point about it being self bleeding, but damn couldn't they have put the thermostat in the pipe itself where its accessible from the side or something... jesus.

Anyway, the thermostat itself when I tested it was only opening a very small amount, and was uneven on one side, so as I didn't have a replacement, I removed the plunger to just leave it permanently open.

Unfortunately after refitting, and filling / bleeding the system, the problem still remains with the water emptying out the top of the reservoir and eventually leaving nothing but froth in there. Though the water in the reservoir now gets hot where as it didn't before.

I'm afraid I'm now thinking it is the head (unless there's some other plausible explanation), so will be going to a real motorfactors* tomorrow to see if I can buy a sniff test.

* (I really don't know why I was stupid enough to believe Halfords would have such a useful thing, but they're the only place open on a bank holiday....)

Cheers for everyone's help, much appreciated :)

Ciarán
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Post by Peter.N. »

Hi Ciaran

Not the easiest thermostat to replace :x I have to change the one on the white car, but in 13 years and about 250k miles, I have only changed two, so pretty reliable.

Sounds like a head gasket job I'm afraid, its a pig but well worth doing, its about the only thing that goes wrong with those engines and it should be good for another 150k when done. Get a Citroen 'repair gasket' they are more expensive but are made from laminated steel, look as though they should last forever. Mines done over 70k since I changed it with no problems.

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Post by Ciaran »

Its looking very like it Peter, will just get the sniffer to be sure.

Strange, I always run the engine with real strong coolant mix (70-90%), but then I don't know its history before the 3 years that I owned it, so...

Unfortunately time is something I really don't have at the moment, I'm run off my feet with work, and that car needs to be back on the road ASAP, so I suspect someone else will be doing it.
A pity, if had another spare car for the missus to use (I can't afford to be without mine for work), I'd happily do the job at my leisure for the experience, but I really don't have that luxury at the moment sadly.

Still, at least once its done its done, and shouldn't go again...


Ciarán
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Post by Peter.N. »

Buy the next cheap one you see and park it out of the way somewhere until you need it - thats what I do. :wink:

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Post by Ciaran »

I kept meaning to do that with the sacrafical Xantia, but it needed far too much to put it back on the road.

Am definitely going to have to pickup a spare XM though....

At least today wasn't a total write off, I did discover where the coolant leak in the S1 is coming from....

:lol:

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Post by xmexclusive »

Hi Ciaran

Not directly relevant but had a similar variable water loss on the latest 2.5 XM estate that I picked up last week. Bringing it back from London it lost a couple of ltrs of coolant in the first 5 miles, topped up and it then ran 40 miles with no loss, then it threw away anther couple of ltrs of coolant towards the end of the trip. Parked up overnight it lost nothing. Drove it round a bit and eventually found that the small rad had a leak in the front large enough to send a jets of water out through the cooling fans and even get spots on the windscreen. It only did this though when the small rad thermostat opened under heavy acceleration. It seems that the main thermostat is defective and open all the time so running the main rad and cooling fans far longer than needed so the small rad is hardly ever in circuit.

John
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Post by Deanxm »

At least today wasn't a total write off, I did discover where the coolant leak in the S1 is coming from....

Laughing
Well?, do tell, hope it was good news for you

Nice to see on here John, thats not another 2.5 is it? :lol:

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