Scrap Your Xantias

Post by **myglaren** » 01 Mar 2009, 16:47

New cars for old?

I think this is a seriously short-sighted scheme that is just meant to artificially pad the flagging economy and shovel a few quid into the car makers pockets.

One brighter note to the slump is that SAAB are pushing to become an independent manufacturer again and free themselves from the dreaded GM shackles.

If only Citroen could separate themselves from Peugeot in the same way. Never going to happen of course

Post by **CitroJim** » 01 Mar 2009, 17:58

That's a very provactive post title for some of us Steve

You know, I don't get it. Every day someone bangs on about how our planet is being killed and how we must all be "green" and think of the environment. They even levy taxes on it.

Then we're told the car is the worst offender and not only that but new cars are terrible consumers of carbon and for every new car made, it consumes 70% of it's lifetime carbon during its manufacture and so on ad-nauseum.

Older cars have paid their carbon debt times over so I thought we were actually doing the planet good by running old cars; something that could be described as "green". We could even be said to be keeping lots of business in the black selling spares and services aimed at obsolete cars.

But hey-ho, the giant car manufacturers go crying to mummy a that they are suffering and what happens? a move to tempt more and more to buy new and to get into debt in the process while scrapping perfectly serviceable cars and in doing so, causing more environmental damage. If you don't think scrapping a car is damaging the environment, just go to any scrapyard. ELV regulations, my foot. Scrapyards are the same as they always have been and are anything but green.

So, I can only conclude there is no environmental problem and the planet is in no danger of immintent death, otherwise the governments of the word would be doing something seriously about it rather than paying lip service and seeing it as a good excuse to levy yet more tax.

No, sadly, it's all about money and the needs of big-business and how they have governments held by their balls. This latest scheme just shows the truth of it.

Steve, that is genuinely good news about SAAB. It would be nice if Citroen went the same way but the mighty PSA have too firm a hold. Mind you, perhaps out of the ashes of the mega-giant car producers some rather good pheonixes may arise.

For me, I shall continue to run my old dinosaurs, safe, finally, in the knowledge that I'm doing nothing to damage the planet (the opposite in fact) and not increasing my personal debt

I shall enjoy my V6 once it's back on the raod with a very clear concience

That is, until the governments enact banning legislation and force us all to buy something new and horrible

nick · Post by **nick** » 01 Mar 2009, 21:29

The SMMT dredge up this idea from time to time, usually when their members' sales and profits are flagging.
The last time was in the late 1990's, the irony being that the fantastically environmentally friendly new cars they were encouraging people to buy a decade ago are the very same ones they are now encouraging people to scrap!

A further problem with the scheme is that it is supposed to persuade people to buy new cars with low CO2 emissions figures, when the manufacturers really struggling at the moment seem to be those who produce large gas guzzlers!

addo · Post by **addo** » 01 Mar 2009, 21:44

For me, I shall continue to run my old dinosaurs...

It's all relative.

I consider my Xantia a "new" car - it's predecessor being a 1987 Corolla.

By salting the roads of snowy countries, governments are already encouraging scrapping older cars.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 01 Mar 2009, 22:39

I believe Vauxhall have been "offering" this deal for a while now having heard of it via radio advertising.

reblack68 · Post by **reblack68** » 02 Mar 2009, 08:29

They have. I heard of a tidy 51-plate 60k mile Focus Ghia being scrapped last year under the scheme.

Bren · Post by **Bren** » 02 Mar 2009, 20:22

My father went looking for some bits for his 99' mondeo (old shape) at the scrappy. He was surprised to find a few later shape mondeos' there - nothing visibly wrong, probably major mech / elec problems making the car uneconomical to repair. Green my arse!

My brother worked at ford (halewood) when they were building the escort. It was known that it cost the company $800 dollars to build an escort. But they then retailed them for ten times that, more if it was a ghia etc.

Moral? If you want to shift them don't be so bloody greedy! Its pathetic to think that after your house an $800 dollar car can morph into the second biggest purchase you will make.

Post by **CitroJim** » 02 Mar 2009, 20:45

Bren wrote: Moral? If you want to shift them don't be so bloody greedy! Its pathetic to think that after your house an $800 dollar car can morph into the second biggest purchase you will make.

Absolutely Bren! Back in the early 80s whlist serving in Cyprus I bought a brand new MG Metro from a well-known local dealer and paid the going "Squaddie" duty-free price. I can't recall now exactly how much but for some reason that now also escapes me, I came into possession of the original invoice for the car showing the ex-works price paid by the dealer to BL for this car. It was getting on for half the sum I paid

That document should never have fallen into my hands but it did and I kept a very careful hold of it as I had a cunning plan.

At the prescribed time, 6 months before I returned home so I could import it into the UK duty-free, I traded in my old Metro for another brand-new one from the same dealer. When the deal they offered did not meet my desires, I produced the invoice with a flourish and managed to secure a very good deal indeed. They were far fram happy but in the face of irrefutable evidence of profiteering on their part thay really had no option but to buy my silence as it were or risk loosing a very lucrative market from the Garrisons. They hated me and after collecting the car it was made clear I was never welcome back in their showroom ever again

They tried to have the last laugh on me by making sure the car was almost dry of petrol on collection. I was prepared and had a jerry can and also made damm sure my trade-in was running on fumes...

Back to 2009 and a pal of mine is sniffing around for a new car and has cash. He's looking at either a Mazda 6 or a Mondy. He's made a few enquiries to a few dealers and none of them have responded in any more than a very luke-warm way. You'd have thought they'd have been practically camped out at his door and falling over themselves to sell him a car, given the current climate, but no. Total indifference. So is there a problem or not?

I reckon they're disinterested because he wants to pay hard cash. Bet they'd love it if he bought it on HP and the backhander they receive as a result...

Funny old game...

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 02 Mar 2009, 22:14

CitroJim wrote:I reckon they're disinterested because he wants to pay hard cash. Bet they'd love it if he bought it on HP and the backhander they receive as a result...

You're quite right there Jim, many moons ago when I used to sell new Fords I could easily earn more commission from the finance than from selling the car. Likewise accessories were a good source of commission.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 03 Mar 2009, 10:53

Encouraging people to buy cars they can't afford is the cause of the mess, not the way out. The economic downturn means that businesses that weren't able to plan for the worst are suffering and we who aren't directly affected will be made to suffer to help out those that caused the mess.

CitroJim wrote: I came into possession of the original invoice for the car showing the ex-works price paid by the dealer to BL for this car. It was getting on for half the sum I paid

The simple view you can take is that they were making a lot of profit on each car but in reality its not that simple. If you're a retailer selling products to a consumer, you've got to cover the costs of running the business before you are making a profit. There are the obvious costs, like the cost of the shop (rent / mortgage), heating, lighting, telephone and wages but there are also the non-obvious costs, such as liability insurance, providing the warranty that retail law requires you to provide etc.

On the face of it that 50% markup makes it look like they're making loads of money, in reality you're paying for the flashy dealership with its walls of glass and shiny floors, i.e. the "new car experience". Its hard to say whether the dealer was making good money or not without seeing the figures, in the good times car dealers make good money, I wouldn't describe what they're experiencing right now as the good times.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 04 Mar 2009, 12:13

Steve, that is genuinely good news about SAAB. It would be nice if Citroen went the same way but the mighty PSA have too firm a hold. Mind you, perhaps out of the ashes of the mega-giant car producers some rather good pheonixes may arise.

Frankly, I feel that the takepover of Citroen by PSA, was inevitable under the circumstances... lucky that there WAS Peugeot around if you ask me. Citroen's superb innovation has never been questioned, but rust proofness and engine technology left much to be desired in the old days.

XMs and Xants will probably be the best ever made IMHO.

As far as Greenery is concerened, I doubt that in 150 years, civilisation as now known will be visible - it is much too late for any human intervention IMHO. Nevertheless, there is no real problem, Nature will sort out the problem no sweat, as it has in the distant past on many occasions.

OwenP · Post by **OwenP** » 05 Mar 2009, 09:12

All I'll say is if the government want to give me enough money to buy a brand new Pug or VW top of the line estate, or to import a new 405 from africa and weatherproof it I'll happily scrap mine, however I don't think the payout will be that good.

So all I'd be doing is a short term hit of cash and no car at the other end.

The other point which I'm surprised no one has mentioned is that this would soon kill off second hand car dealerships, and elimnate the ability of most people (esp. younger drivers) to afford a car to start with, but maybe thats what they want...

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 05 Mar 2009, 19:16

OwenP wrote: The other point which I'm surprised no one has mentioned is that this would soon kill off second hand car dealerships, and elimnate the ability of most people (esp. younger drivers) to afford a car to start with, but maybe thats what they want...

Which do you think would get the government more tax?
You buying a brand new car, or you buying a 2nd hand one.
It's in there interest for people to buy new and scrap them not long after.

Toby_HDi · Post by **Toby_HDi** » 05 Mar 2009, 20:18

Another example of this governments greed.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - this country is (probably already has) going to the dogs

nick · Post by **nick** » 05 Mar 2009, 20:51

Toby_HDi wrote:Another example of this governments greed.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - this country is (probably already has) going to the dogs

Don't worry, when we run out of money we can simply print more