Xantia V6 Questions...

[CitroJim]

As reported in my blog, all being well, I shall soon be taking custody of a sick V6 The realisation of a dream for me; I've been hankering after one ever since Richard (DickieG) took me for a spin in his. They're like an Activa; so easy to get hooked and then you must have one...

The V6 in question is a late MK1 (R plate) with a dead autobox. Now I'm just a little confused as looking through my Xantia "Presentation" books that come with the workshop manuals, the V6 did not appear to exist in MK1 guise. They were introduced in MY1997 as a MK2 "Facelift" according to the aforesaid publications. So what's that all about?

Did these MK1 V6s have the ZF 4HP20 autobox or the earlier 4HP18? I ask as on the pictures I've seen of the car in question, it appears to have an oil temperature gauge on the dash as apposed to the gear indicator on the MK2 V6 It sems that the XM V6 had both fitted, the 4HP20 only appearing on very late XMs.

I'm rather keen to retain the autobox as it's been a long time since I've enjoyed a big auto. The last one was a 2.7 V6 Holden Commodore in Australia and that was a hoot and a half.

What's the prospects of a successful repair of the autobox? I'm game to have a go. I've studied how the 4HP20 works (one clever 'box that!) and I've gleaned from various sources that they all seem to die eventually and that they're a bit of a ticking time-bomb. But why, what dies in them? No source has been very specific but hints are laid at lubrication issues and the formation of crud and rubbish in the oil that eventually causes the hydraulics to fail.

The autobox in question was OK and then just died, no drive at all. Would it be a reasonable assumption to believe that the 'box is choked with debris and that some critical hydraulic line has become blocked and thus not allowing hydraulic pressure to get to the clutch packs and brakes?

Would it be feasible to have the 'box off, strip it, clean it and then might it work again? I know an autobox is a bit complex but if I treat it like a giant diesel pump I should be OK...

How, if when you drain it and only 3 litres can be drained of the 8 litres total in it, can you refill a dry 'box after it has been stripped/rebuilt?

All I know is it is going to be an interesting project...

[fatherjack2002]

Hi Jim, just looking thru all the stuff i got with the V6 the "presentation" booklet although marked up XM, relates to the Xantia V6 engine & box fitted( so i was told by prev owner) , and this lists the autobox as the 4HP20, i was also informed ,(when i was initially making enqiries to get the car repaired) by a autobox specialist that he was 99% certain the box fitted would be the 4HP20 .............
Cheers Paul.....................

[DickieG]

As reported in my blog, all being well, I shall soon be taking custody of a sick V6 The realisation of a dream for me; I've been hankering after one ever since Richard (DickieG) took me for a spin in his.

Sorry about that Jim, will a DS be next on the list?

The V6 in question is a late MK1 (R plate) with a dead autobox. Now I'm just a little confused as looking through my Xantia "Presentation" books that come with the workshop manuals, the V6 did not appear to exist in MK1 guise. They were introduced in MY1997 as a MK2 "Facelift" according to the aforesaid publications. So what's that all about?

The first V6's were MK1's, the first model to come with Exclusive trim i.e. leather electric seats with wood door cappings. They had a specific sales brochure which was very posh (tissue paper between the pages!) I still have one I can show you Jim.

What's the prospects of a successful repair of the autobox? I'm game to have a go.

Oh I forgot to mention to you that I have the Citroën special tool set 8010-T which is the dealer tool set for rebuilding the 4HP20 gearbox (complete set unused), I take it you'd like to borrow it

[MikeT]

I don't know if it relates but on a Ford they say that keeping the G/B oil to[[ed up. clean and cool is highly critical. They say that draining (as you say) will only release some of it and that you need to pull off the feed hose, place that in your can of new oil, then pull off the return hose to place it in a catchment container then run the engine (perhaps running through the gear selections?) to flush out old with new.

[CitroJim]

Sorry about that Jim, will a DS be next on the list?

Don't even go there Richard I have people on the BXC trying to get me to take on a BX...

One day when I retire and have that big garage I dream of...

They had a specific sales brochure which was very posh (tissue paper between the pages!) I still have one I can show you Jim.

Yes please! Sounds like they were really something special when they were first introduced...

Oh I forgot to mention to you that I have the Citroën special tool set 8010-T which is the dealer tool set for rebuilding the 4HP20 gearbox (complete set unused), I take it you'd like to borrow it

I think I might Richard, that's just brilliant

you need to pull off the feed hose, place that in your can of new oil, then pull off the return hose to place it in a catchment container then run the engine (perhaps running through the gear selections?) to flush out old with new.

Thanks Mike, that gives me an idea Not only for refilling but possibly for emptying it too. The thing weighs 88Kg with oil and if I can drain most of it somehow befre the 'box comes off, it'll help lighten it a bit as well as possibly avoiding a BIG oil spill later on...

[DickieG]

I've just dug out the 8010-T tool set, one part of it is the KOSTAL plug test harness to carry out ohmmeter tests on sensors, electrovalves and regulators on the hydraulic block as well as the multifunction switch

What would be helpful is to also get hold of the test harness 4187-T so that those tests can be carried out via your Lexia (less hassle), I've looked through my collection of test harnesses but I haven't got that one

[myglaren]

Halfway there already Jim, without having to lift a finger

[CitroJim]

Halfway there already Jim

I may be half way there Steve, but in the immortal words of Jon Bon-Jovi, I'm livin' on a prayer (or will be for a bit) with this project

[andmcit]

It's a 4HP20 - no question - the engine is a 60 degree v6 whereas the 4HP18
was fitted on the earlier 90 degree v6 as seen in the first Xm's. The later Xm
shares exactly the same set up of engine/box as the Xantia.

I've been asking on club-xm for a specific automatic section as they ARE
REALLY BAD NEWS and cause nothing but trouble and the premature end of a
lot of cars and there's nary a discussion on there where the dreaded dead at
120k miles autobox isn't referred to with two distinct camps of love/hate for it!

I will have a rummage through all my factory workshop manuals for the later
autobox rebuild section - I know there's one for the earlier 4HP18...

Didn't the inventor of the automatic gearbox get committed into an asylum?

Andrew

[deian]

Hi Jim,

so your concern about refilling it is that if you strip it it will be empty of 8 litre of oil, and if one drains it will be empty of 3 litres, so you are asking whether the other 5 litres will be in places that are out of reach without the need for turning it over a bit, hence damaging the unit to get the remaining 5 litres of oil into the correct nooks and cranies??

If the above isn't the case, just fill it with what comes out... 8 litres with striping.

I shan't patronise you by saying there is a dipstick and filler plug on it, you know that. And I will assume you've seen the citroen technical guide on the 4hp20 box. Other than that, I hope the box just needs clean oil/filter and a fault cleared up off the ecu, or just a cruddy connection somewhere, an earth or something?

I think an auto box is in a league above a diesel pump if it comes to an overhaul, well... you know, good luck. From what I've read somewhere ages ago, it's the clutches that go probably due to the hydraulics crudding up, so you are on the right track there.

I envy your enthusiasm, fair play to you jim. Where your blog so I can follow this.

[addo]

I'll be looking forward to this. Especially with the right tool kit and obsessive cleanliness, it should be well possible to rebuild the unit. If there's any hint of fluid burning, then adding an external cooler may be possible using the "sandwich" type adapters.

One fellow I know, referred to the "manuals are always superior" cheer squad as knob-holders. A good auto is fine, especially in cruising situations.

BTW, that piece of camelote Australien (hope this is right) you recall driving was 3.8 litres - not 2.7...

Regards, Adam.

[andmcit]

No dice with the Xm manual but I did find theselinks;

# [PDF]
TECHNICAL TRAINING ZF 4HP20 AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/va ... aining.pdf -

ZF 4HP20
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/va ... _4HP20.pdf

Andrew

[CitroJim]

BTW, that piece of camelote Australien (hope this is right) you recall driving was 3.8 litres - not 2.7...

Yes, it was a 3.8 Adam The old memory is getting dim I do remember though I was working twenty miles down the Stuart Highway from Darwin one evening when SWMBO called to say she thought she'd gone into labour.

I lept in the Commodore, gearbox in sport mode and I went for it. Never before or since has that journey been completed so quickly Could that car ever go

It was a false alarm. Robyn arrived four days later...

[CitroJim]

Where your blog so I can follow this.

It's here Dei, in the Blogs and Galleries area of the forum have you not seen them?

I very much expect another will be opened in due course, devoted entirely to the V6

[jgra1]

Very interested in this Jim

my Hp20 is 100K and I am thinking to buy another , for when it gives up soon!

they are damn heavy !

will keep an eye on the blog