1.9d Hard starting

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 05 Jan 2009, 16:10

I have the !.9d non turbo in my 2003 Berlingo. Over the past few weeks the first start of the day has become progressively more difficult. It's not neccessarily associated with the cold weather. It takes a lot of cranking to get it going, and when it does it's very lumpy for the first 5-10 seconds, it sounds pretty rattley for a short while then it settles to run beautifully. After the first start it fires up immediately and runs well. It failed to start after 2 days idle this weekend. The AA got it going with a jump start. I know this points to a battery or charging problem but these check out OK. Any ideas please?

Post by **myglaren** » 05 Jan 2009, 16:22

The dreaded Glow Plugs, it's that time of year unfortunately.
You will see quite a few threads covering the same problem, most of them quite recent.
First thing to do is get them checked, there are likely a couple off.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 05 Jan 2009, 16:32

I second the glowplug theory. The clue is that it runs cleaner after it warms up a bit (when glowplugs are not required).

But a diesel engine needs a good battery so worth having that checked also.

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 05 Jan 2009, 17:18

Many thanks for the rapid replies, I spent a couple of hours this AM trying to get at the glowplugs to check them out. I thought I was OK with removing the Inlet air manifold.
But when I got deeper and found that I needed to remove/disconnect the EGR and circular clips that looked like one time clips, and that seals are involved I gave up and reassembled it.
I can check them by Multimeter if only I can get at them, but it seems to be impossible without fairly major dismantling. It's too cold outside for that!
Is it possible to check any other way? I know it's not really, sorry.
I guess there's nothing else for it, a trip to the Main dealer? Would the average garage round the corner manage it?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 05 Jan 2009, 17:50

Hi Bryan -

You could check if the plugs gets power at all.

You will notice all 4 plugs are connected to the same point by a heavy gauge wire. This wire should carry at least 11V (no-go limit is 10.8V) when the ignition key is initially turned on (not to the starter position).
The voltage should remain on for something like 10-30 seconds, then it automatically disables itself by the glow plug timer relay.

Also - you dont need to remove the glowplugs completely.
If yo can gain access to the tips where the wire is screwed down, then "all you need" (sounds easy ehh ?) is to do an ohms check on each plug tip, possibly removing the wire from the 3 easier ones leaving the wire on the least accessible one, and using this wire to check that plug.

This check is done with ignition OFF.
All plugs should one by one check out like a fuse, in normal terms a shortcircuit, to be in working order.
If they check out more than 1.0 ohm they are shot.
Commonly you wont be in doubt as they usually are either working or high ohmic.

As an emergency workaround you may get away with a little patience : turn on the ignition key, and at the moment you can hear the faint click (instrument lights will be brighter also) from the glow plug timer dropping the relay, then imemdiately try a start.
Should also work if you calmly count to 10 before you attempt a start.

Any weak glowplugs then gets a better chance to do their best.

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 05 Jan 2009, 18:22

Thanks Anders, I've been doing 2 cycles of the glowplugs before trying, I imagine this will have the same result?
As to getting to the plugs, this model makes it impossible without taking off loads of bits, as said above. It's just too cold to try it, plus we can't afford to take the car off the road long enough to do a DIY job as we'd have to order the parts when we see what's needed.
Going to try priming the fuel before starting tomorrow, just in case it's air entering the leakoff pipes. Clutching at straws I know but it's just as difficult to get at them so I'd hate to do the job twice.

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Jan 2009, 20:19

The engine must have an inlet manifiold similar to the older 2.1TD. Those clips on the EGR pipe are infinitely (or nearly so) reusable with care. Use a small pointed instrument to clip it apart like so...

And re-clip it using large pliers. I don't have a pccture of the reclipping method but I find a large pair of electrician's wire cutters do the job perfectly; the cutting blades slip under the crimps just perfectly to pull the two edges together.

After the top half of the manifold is off, there'll be plenty of room to get to the glowplugs.

Good idea to check the leakoff pipes but again the mainifold will need to come off. Also, do check all the usual suspects for air leaks such as the fuel filter housing and primer bulb and so on.

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 06 Jan 2009, 09:16

Thanks Jim, No start again today, Just trying hairdrier up the intake plus jump battery. I'll come back later. Thanks again for the tip. BB

Edit. Tried the primer today, it kept pumping for about 40 strokes, with a bit of resistance. Should it come up solid?

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 06 Jan 2009, 16:25

Got it started using the hairdrier etc, gave it a run to cheer the battery up.
All the advice given here gave me the confidence to tackle the job, only unexpected bit was having to unbolt the resonator box from the block underneath. Car was on the ground so a tight squeeze.
2 glowplugs were down, changed all 4, Only NGK or real cheapos were available in a hurry, so I used NGK.
Leakoff pipes were good and didn't want to come off so I left them.
First start tomorrow will be the acid test.
Thanks again to everyone who gave advice. I have the Haynes manual but it jumps from chapter to chapter, not to mention covering many models and variants so not easy to follow through a procedure.

Post by **CitroJim** » 06 Jan 2009, 19:05

Well done Bryan

All the best for tomorrow morning and let the glowplugs go on until you hear the relay click off and all will be good.

It's interesting in this cold to analyse why an IDI diesel needs such good glowplugs...

If I don't give my 2.1TD a long enough "glow" it starts instantly but coughs and splutters for a few seconds until it gets a bit of warmth into it. If I let the glowplugs glow right until the relay clicks off, long after the orange lamp goes out - about 40 seconds) it starts instantly and runs like a clock immediately even in the -7 we had this morning.

I believe the problem comes from the inrush of cold air and diesel fuel into a very cold engine with just glowplug tips glowing cools the prechambers sufficiently to cause misfiring through incomplete combustion. Give the glowplugs plenty of time to do their job and they pass sufficient heat to the surrounding metalwork to overcome the initial cooling effect of the cold air and fuel. That's why your hairdrier was effective. You got the inlet air temperature up. Some engines do in fact use glowplugs in the air intake to perform the same role.

I also believe, although I have no solid evidence, that supermarket diesel is inferior to the well-known brands when it comes to easy starting in cold weather. The critical aspect is the fuel's cetane rating or its readiness to spontaneously combust. A higher cetane rating improves cold starting and I reckon the well-known stuff has a higher intrinsic cetane rating than the stuff off the supermarket forecourt; although all DERV sold has to meet BS590 I'll bet that from Try'N'Save just meet it whereas the stuff from more normal purveyors of petroeum spirit exceed it. Mine seems more economical on the good stuff as well as seeming to run sweeter generally.

Post by **myglaren** » 06 Jan 2009, 21:05

What would you class as "Good Stuff" Jim, I may be tempted to give it a try as there seems to be very little differenc in price at the pumd around here anyway (Just filled up, havent I

)

Post by **CitroJim** » 06 Jan 2009, 21:15

myglaren wrote:What would you class as "Good Stuff" Jim,

My personal favouritre brew Steve, is Shell, not the Carlos Fandango V Power stuff, just the ordinary Shell DERV.

My favourite fuel for the Activa is Shell V Power Petrol.

BP is a very close second both diesel and petrol.

The worse seems to be the Tesco stuff, both their DERV and their 99 Octane petrol; my Activa is noticeably different on it.

It would be interesting to know what Gareth runs in his Activa; felt like rocket fuel on Saturday

Post by **myglaren** » 06 Jan 2009, 21:48

I'll try the Shell next time then _ I do have to admit to a degree of scepticism here as we see all kinds of tankers delivering to Savacentre, where I almost always fill up.

My son claimed that his car always ran better and dramatically more economically on Sainsbury's petrol.

Not sure where there is a Shell station around here, which demonstrates just how observant I am?

Still, I have five weeks to find one.

I did try some super-duper BP petrol in the Accord once. It was the only thing that made it run at anything other than 32mpg. (substantially less, won't fall for that one again

)

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 07 Jan 2009, 00:42

I've been running cassy on shell v-power diesel (it's only a couple of pence more than their normal derv, and with her usually running on veg, the extra cleaning additives can't do any harm) for the past week or so as I've not had a chance to get to costco.
Now I'm running on 100% SVO and even in this cold weather, as long as I let the glow plugs do their thang, she starts straight away, and actually seems less lumpy.

BryanB · Post by **BryanB** » 07 Jan 2009, 09:44

Good morning, It started first try this morning, Still dark and -7c. Just a few skinned knuckles to remind me that there was ever a problem. Thanks again for all the advice.

On the subject of diesel fuel, I've done a bit of reading and a lot of personal comparisons. There is no doubt in my mind that Shell is the best, plus more economic by about 6%. This is borne out by independant testing of cetane values. However I live too far from a Shell station for this to be of use to me. I use Tesco (every little helps) but I always dose it with Miller's additive, which adds 2p per litre and brings up the cetane by 4 points. So then the performance equals Shell. The only time I gain anything is during 5p off promo.
I have also tested diesel fuel (In boat engines) between Greece and UK. The average Greek diesel returns 10% less than UK stuff, but worst is Tunisian, Stinks of sulphur and 15-20% down, About half way up the French canals we had a surge of power when we ran out of Tunisian and went over to French stuff.
This info is of little use to us in UK, except to debunk the "All diesel is the same" theories. Cheers BB

French Car Forum

1.9d Hard starting

1.9d Hard starting

Glowplugs!!