1.9 td Poor cold starting (CURED!!!!!!!!!!)

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 19 Feb 2003, 14:32

I need help with my 96 Xantia. The story so far: It's done about 100,000 & is in very good condition. The previous owner sold it because of the starting problem. On the first cold start of the day it takes anything from 30secs to a minute to start. while it's trying you get a light mist of white smoke from the exhaust & a cloud of white when it fires up. it runs perfectly as soon as it fires & is not in any way rough or lumpy. Subsequent starts are fine unless more than 6 or 7 hours have passed.
Before i got it it had had a new battery & glow plugs. Since i've had it I have done the following.
Replaced the leak of piping & blanking plug
put new clips on all the under bonnett fuel pipes
put a new o ring on the lid of the fuel filter.
All the above was done in case it was an air leak although using the primer pump make no difference to the time it takes to start.
I took out the existing glow plugs (NGK)& they tested ok. At Dave Burns suggestion I have just changed them for Beru plugs but this hasn't made any difference.
A test light on the glow plugs shows them on for about 10 secs after the light goes out.
I have also tried a lead direct from the batt + to the plugs but again this didn't help.
I'm at my wits end please help!
[:D][:D]

GERO · Post by **GERO** » 19 Feb 2003, 19:38

SORRY FOR THE BAD ENGLISH WRITING, I HOPE YOU WILL TAKE THIS MESSAGE AS HELP.In mi oppinion your Xantia has problem with the diesel pomp, Boch or Roto diesel(think the first one).If the smoke is white your pomp needs advance. For this, you need a specialist, or a special test machine, as i know the name is stroboskope or something.
for shore your pomp mast by corrected in "+" to change the mix of the full and the air entering in it.If smoke is white the mix is - more air, lass full.To have good start check:
- the baterry - the sparks - the full filter - the starter - the pomp.if oll of them are o.k the engine will start in Alaska as well
BY CULL, GERO
GERO

Post by **RichardW** » 19 Feb 2003, 21:24

Pete,
There are lots more things to check. You KNOW it will be the last one you look at.....
You can rule out the glowplugs as you have changed them - it would start on 3 if this was the problem. I don't think it's air as you say the primer doesn't make any difference, and the white smoke suggests diesel is getting there, vaporising, but not igniting.
Have you checked the wax stat (runs from the thermostat to the pump) it should be taut when cold, and slack when hot. If it's slack when cold try holding the lever it pulls on on the pump (the cold start / fast idle lever) when starting (a piece of wire will do - the engine will run fine with the lever in this position). Check also any other cold start devices on the pump are working (I can't remember off hand what else the Xantia has).
Cranking speed is critical to starting a diesel engine - check the connections on the battery and the starter motor, get the battery tested to see it is OK. Try to find another Xantia TD without starting problems, and see what it sounds like when being cranked, does yours sound slower?
Next you have to check the valve clearances - look for a tight exhaust valve.
Next is the pump / cam timing. Check that you can insert the timing pins into the cam and pump sprocket, with the engine at TDC - check also that the cam corresponds to the sprocket position - the valves of cyls 1 and 4 should be closed with the TDC pin in the flywheel.
Next you have to get the pump timing itself checked - this requires some knowledge, plus a dial gauge so needs to be done by a garage - peferably a diesel specialist. Get a compression test while you're there.
Hopefully something will come up on this lot, if not then I dunno!
Richard

Dave Burns · Post by **Dave Burns** » 20 Feb 2003, 00:14

What a naughty XUD, Pete, crack open all the injector unions half a turn on your next convenient cold start, you want to see a healy, regular pulse of fuel at each injector as soon as the engine is turned over, get someone to turn the key for you, unless you are brave enough to go from the solenoid winding terminal nut to main battery feed terminal nut on the solenoid with a screwdriver or similar.
If fuel is there as it should be I would suspect the pump timing is way out or there is a problem with low compression, which is unlikely.
If it was low compo not only could it cause poor starting but would almost certainly run a bit rough until it warmed up for a few seconds, and you say it runs well as soon as it fires.
You don't want to hear this I know but it still sounds like air, when you pump the hand primer bulb do you do so until the bulb goes solid, because if not there will still be air in the injection pump.
Anyway leave the primer alone and try cracking off the unions and tell us what transpires.
Bung some rag round the injectors to soak up any diesel that gets out.
I'm afraid cranking speed is not really that important provided everything is bob on, mine doesn't crank very fast and Iv'e heard XUD's start when you would have thought there was no chance.
Dave

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 20 Feb 2003, 00:37

It cranks over at least as fast as my mates Mondeo so of hand i'd have to say I don't think it's that. It's as smooth as a nut as soon as it fires & pulls like a train (wheel spin in 2nd in the wet!)
As for air the bulb firms up a little but you can pump it a dozen times or more & it still has a bit of give.Why? There is no sign of a leak in the engine bay or under the car at any time & no smell of diesel either. I'm going to replace the fuel pipe both sides of the pump with clear hose & see what I can see. Can't think of anything else to try. If the pump timing was out enough to effect cold starts would it not manifest itself in other ways?

mikeg · Post by **mikeg** » 20 Feb 2003, 11:48

Hi Pete,
Have you tried switching on and waiting to hear the glow plug relay click {about 20 seconds or so} after the light goes out, then fire it up? This method worked on my BX 1.7 td & xantia 1.9d.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Mike.

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 20 Feb 2003, 13:41

Hi Mike
Yeh I've tried that a few times & it makes no noticeable difference.
I'm going to be a 'care in the community' case if this keeps up!

frankie · Post by **frankie** » 20 Feb 2003, 17:57

Have you tried the pesky rubber fuel lines that run down the bulhead? These split at the 180 degree bend although I would have thought that priming would help.

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 21 Feb 2003, 14:12

Frankie
I have a set but have not fitted them yet. I moved away from the air leak theory because the primer pump made no difference. I'm going to see what some clear fuel line shows & replace it if necesary. Any tips on replacing the pipe as a quick dive under the car to have a look at the pipe showed access to be a bit tight to say the least!

frankie · Post by **frankie** » 22 Feb 2003, 02:06

The pipes are difficult to access, you will need to jack & support the vehicle & take off the wheel-better to get a garage to do it where they can put it on a lift. I was surprised that very little fuel leaked out but the metal hose clips are a bugger to get off. I would be inclined to check the old pipes before going down under. When the pipes are warm and supple, pressurise the fuel system & manipulate the 180-degree bend and feel for any fuel leaking out.

jack.dempsey · Post by **jack.dempsey** » 05 Mar 2003, 18:09

How interesting - the above reads like the entries from my own diary.
My 97 Xantia 1.9 TD (aquired recently due to previous owner 'fed-up' with cold start issue) exhibits the same fault. I've got the service history for this car and note that the first instance of this problem was recorded when the car had done but 50K miles. "Please address bad cold start problem" - "glowplugs OK but changed" appearing about 4 times since then on the service records. Interestingly it seems that prior to the first recorded problem (at about 40K miles) the throttle cable was changed (hmmm!). I can sympathize with you - having wrestled with the glow plugs - yet again, added loads of injector cleaner, checked out the emmission control system and fast idle settings - all to no avail. I shall be following this thread closely and would welcome any thoughts that anyone may have in relation to this wierd problem. My BX TZD has 250K miles and original everything - but starts like a 'good-en' first time every time. I fear I too am destined for the asylum very soon - so I'll reserve a chair for you.

Post by **Jon** » 05 Mar 2003, 19:49

Hm, its a nightmare.
Strangely enough I was talking on this very subject to a Parts bloke at my local Citroen dealer the other day, and he tells me that this Xantia 1.9Td staring problem is something that they are well aware of, despite changing glows and the fuel pipes at the bulkhead.
He tells me that they fit a one way valve in one of the fuel lines to prevent diesel draining back to the tank. I can get some more info if required.
It does seem odd in view of the fact that ZX, Xsara and Dispatch with the same engine are not affected.
And, you say that pumping the primer bulb makes no difference......
[?]

tomsheppard · Post by **tomsheppard** » 05 Mar 2003, 20:08

At the mention of primer bulbs, riddle me this. If I should pump the bulb on my car (Starts first turn of the crank everytime returns 49 mpg and quoted MPH) there is a quite audible squelching noise of fuel whizzing round the leak off pipes and the bulb becomes firmish but not rigid. Start the motor and a small quantity of derv issues from somewhere around the throttle lever spindle on the Bosch pump. No more comes out and there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the engine, so I plan to ignore it. An explanation of what is happening would be nice though...

Fox · Post by **Fox** » 04 Apr 2003, 01:08

Jon, if you could get some more info on this valve it would be most appreciated. I feel that this may have something to do with my almost identical problem - the only difference being that mine is a little bit rough for 2-3 seconds after I finally get it started. Lots of white smoke as well. Primer bulb makes no difference.

jack.dempsey · Post by **jack.dempsey** » 07 Apr 2003, 03:03

Another weekend of gashed knuckles and all to prove what I really knoew already - I tried some more glowplugs - these came straight from my BX (which has done nearly 250,000 miles and still bursts into life on the first revolution). I swapped the glow plugs over because the symptoms seem so like a glowplug problem but as I predicted the BX still starts from cold on the first spin whilst the Xantia requires all the trickery of 3 cycles on the ignition, tentative tickling on the throttle, and about 15 to 20 seconds of cranking to start. I concur that mine too throws out lots of white smoke - presumably diesel vapour and runs a bit rough for a few seconds until it stabilises and then runs like a dream all day. As the days get warmer the starting seems to be getting gradually better - down from 20 to 25 seconds when really cold to 15 to 20 seconds now its spring. It's the embarrasment of starting in the company of on-lookers who all pull terrible faces as the starting exercise progresses. I'd really welcome any news from any one who has mastered(or even identified the cause of) this condition - which does seem to be common amongst Xantias.