Xantia Estate Handling

[addo]

This question might be one for you blokes, as there are that many more wagons floating about in the UK. Regular 6 sphere Series II is the one in question...

I've dropped tyre pressures down to factory placard levels (33 front/30 rear unladen) on the OEM size 185/65/15 rubber. Previously had them pretty high (44/42) for economy and accuracy of feel.

What I've found, is that at the lower pressure there is more control/graduation to how much the front scrubs out and chronically understeers, but it's happening at comparatively low speeds. Does this represent what others have found on similar sizes/pressures of tyre? Rubber is Toyo Teo front, ancient Olympics on rear. The kind of speeds I'm talking about are around 15km/k into a hairpin, or 35km/h into a tight 90° corner.

Is it mainly a function of wheelbase and suspension geometry, this way it forces you to slow so much for corners? Can oversteer be safely generated in a non-Hydractive Xantia, and if anyone has managed, what were the tyres/pressures/techniques?

With the comparatively slippery front end, I'm reluctant to power hard out of a turn in case it ploughs straight ahead and just gives me a bag of chassis/torque reactions to digest.

Yes, I know it's not a Skyline or Lotus Seven, but it is a fun car that invites spirited driving. Just that I am keen to hear some seasoned opinions on where the limits really are. No point pushing it to levels of stupidity (or embarrassment, if one is more fortunate).

Thanks, Adam.

[TBONE]

I use 30 psi all round never had a problem

[CitroJim]

I run a 2.1TD non-Hydractive estate and find the handling at rated pressures (2.4 bar front, 2.2 bar rear) fairly OK but the problem is I run an Activa as well so anything else seems to handle like a boat.

Generally it always feels safe and secure but the roll is quite alarming (to me) at times Mine runs 205/60/15 tyres.

Xac, its preevious owner, is a much more spirited driver than I and following him driving the 2.1TD I watched in awe as he took roundabouts at some pace, seemingly bottoming out the suspension!

Understeer is indeed evident. After a week of driving the 2.1TD and then driving the Activa I find initially I'm over-compensating for the understeer I'm expecting had I been in the 2.1TD.

[Xaccers]

I throw Cassy around roundabouts at 30mph for the small ones, and 45mpg for some of the larger ones, if anything, she's more prone to oversteer (like most Xantias I've driven) than understeer.
Don't know if not being hydractive makes them better at holding the road, I wouldn't have thought so though.
What's your tread depth on the tyres?

[addo]

Tread depths:
4.5 front, 5.5 rear on the nearside. Pretty even on inside and outside grooves.

Add 1mm to each for the offside measurements. Rear rubber is harder than front.

Jim - it's not the roll that alarms me - it's the sound/feel of tyres going sideways! The Teos don't squeal much, just make a grating sound...

Regards, Adam.

[Peter.N.]

You all drive to fast.

[jgra1]

mine scrubs about too

oversteer is very upsetting in my xantia, really ....

bad choice of tyres was all the caused it, lucky to be alive.... no way of rescuing it.. the three times it happened....

[addo]

You all drive to fast.

Actually, on suburban roads I am the slow guy sticking doggedly two under the limit! If I want to be an idiot, it's where there will be no risk of other casualties.

oversteer is very upsetting in my xantia, really ....

Precisely my experience; once was enough to disturb me; I held throttle position so the suspension loadings remained fairly constant, but there was no real feeling at all of control.

So, I'm curious as to how people like Xac are getting it to move in a manner that clearly doesn't worry them. Maybe a different approach to throttle control?

Regards, Adam.

[pete_wood_uk]

I don't know how relevant this is going to be, because my estate is Hydractive, though I guess that the geometry doesn't change from one to t'tother, just the degree of roll. Mine is also, however, a 110 HDI, which I think runs on a wider track than some earlier xantias.

I do appreciate good handling (I'm an ex-biker and sports car owner) and my experience of 300k miles in 3 different xantias (2 6-sphere TD saloons on 185 tyres and my current 110 estate) is, I've written here before, that the car's handling is hugely dependent on its tyres, particularly the fronts. So what follows is what I (think I've) learned.

I know nothing about Toyo Teo tyres and, even if I'd heard of them, chances are that yours would have come out of a different factory to mine and be completely different...

All of what follows is IMHO. Others differ, they may judge tyres by comfort or tyre life. I have a commute to work down bendy roads with large ditches eithe side, and I like to make progress, so I rate handling higher than the other possible priorities.

What you're looking for at the front is (a) stickiness and (b) sidewall stiffness. The more the merrier of both. The Xantia loads its fronts up in corners (as you've noticed ) and gives them a hard time. If the car's moving significantly from side to side over the tread then it's all going to buckle and go horribly wrong.

Of the various tyres I've had on the fronts of my cars, I've found a good correlation between what I think of the handling and how much the car/tyre rocks when (with the front wheels straight ahead) I put my foot on the top of the front tyre and push hard sideways. If the wheel wobbles from side to side over the tyre, it ain't gonna handle.

Sidewall stiffness seems to vary significantly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some tyres seem to have have soft sidewalls, presumably in an effort to improve ride comfort. I've never seen Xantia ride comfort as a particular problem, it's got plenty to spare, and has loads of compliance already in its suspension, the last thing I think you want to do is to add more.

So I usually pick tyres that are aimed at the sort of BMW/Mercedes style sports saloon market. They tend to be relatively stiff and sticky, without going so far as a proper soft rubber sports car tyre, which I kinda assume that the Xantia will eat the tread off in only a few thousand miles.

I also tend to pick the V rather than H-rated versions, again to add a little stiffness.

In the UK tyre market, I've had handling success with Michelin Pilot Primacy (haven't tried Primacy HP), Goodyear Eagle Ventura, Goodyear Eagle NCT5 and Goodyear Excellence. Two notable disasters have been some sort of Dunlop tyre and recent Uniroyals, both of which left me feeling as if I was driving a bowl of understeering rice pudding rather than a car. The absolute grip of the Eagle NCT5s wasn't that fabulous in the wet, but the handling was fine. Micehlin Energys are another absolute no-no, they combine poor handling with sod-all grip, though I'm sure that they last a long time.

I don't think you'll ever get a Xantia to reliably oversteer, whenever I've done it it's been down to either the road surface or crap rear tyres - when I got the current 110, it had pilot primacies on the front and energies on the back. Aaaaargh. My wife (who's not a lunatic driver) unhooked the rear round the local roundabout without even trying.

Properly shod and with the tracking right and with the rear self-steering bushes all doing their thing, your Xantia should turn in well and fairly cleanly, understeer when under power, then tuck in fairly smartly and feel as it it's on rails when you lift off. It shouldn't feel as if it's bound for the ditch (as long as your foot isn't hard on the throttle) and it shouldn't spin out if you back off.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Pete

[Xaccers]

So, I'm curious as to how people like Xac are getting it to move in a manner that clearly doesn't worry them. Maybe a different approach to throttle control?

Regards, Adam.

Know your car's limits.
For instance, I've not driven Jenny enough to know how far I can throw her.
Likewise when new tyres are fitted.
Go into the bend/roundabout (they're safer as they don't have on-coming traffic - well apart from that one time in Gosport with an OAP going the wrong way) with your throttle set, so you're not increasing or decreasing it as you go, your speed should stay constant, and likewise the lateral forces on the car.

I think I've had the back wobble on Cassy twice in the time I've had her, and I think they were both on the same roundabout which has poor road surface along a road I rarely use.

My first Xantia when fitted with continentals was a bit slippery at the back at very low speeds, once I managed to recover, the second time I wasn't so fortunate and my N/S/F wheel clipped the bank at the side of the road. I'm pretty sure I actually hit debris on the road that time.

If your back end is sliding all over the place, then you need to change your tyres and never use them again.
Xantias definitely need good tyres on the rear.

[XantiaMan]

Definatly good front tyres for the front, i used 2.1 front and 2.3 for the back, the TD handles very well if you can feel the signs, never had it do oversteer, if you do get it, something is wrong and i would say crap back tyres.

You can feel the rear of the car steering you round aswell if you push it hard enough.

[Xaccers]

You can feel the rear of the car steering you round aswell if you push it hard enough.

I wonder if people mistake that for oversteer?

[pete_wood_uk]

You can feel the rear of the car steering you round aswell if you push it hard enough.

Yup. Love it. That's what I referred to above as the "on rails" feeling as it loads up the rear corner and steers itself round. Didn't know how to express it...

Pete

[XantiaMan]

You can feel the rear of the car steering you round aswell if you push it hard enough.

Yup. Love it. That's what I referred to above as the "on rails" feeling as it loads up the rear corner and steers itself round. Didn't know how to express it...

Pete

Yes, more apparant in the TD than the Activa, but the TD surprises most because you dont expect it to handle so well. Roll is just a characteristic and helps you push it to the limit more easily. The Activa on the limit is a different beast, 4 wheel drifting is a whole new world and great fun!

[CitroJim]

The Activa on the limit is a different beast, 4 wheel drifting is a whole new world and great fun!

What?!!?? you've had a four wheel slide out of it Gareth?

Tell us more!