Bad Paintwork on ZX

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the_weaver
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Bad Paintwork on ZX

Post by the_weaver »

Hi folks

My ZX is 15 years old with 210K on the clock and the paintwork is now deteriorating quite badly. I was wondering whether anybody on the forum can help with suggestions as to what can be done to salvage the situation. I realise I should have washed and waxed the car more regularly but unfortunatley for me I didn't, and now the paintwork seems to be slowly coming off.

The paint is a non-metallic black (original, never resprayed) and the paint on the bonnet has been dull and flat for a while. Recently the black bonnet has started developing white patches here and there. It's a sort of light powdery effect like somebody has thrown some flour on the bonnet. At first I thought it was the remnants of polish turning white with age but now a worse patch has developed, about six inches in diameter, and the white powdery stuff can be scraped off with your fingernail. Underneath there seems to be another coat of black paint. It looks like the top coat of paint is turning to this white powdery stuff and then coming off.

The problem is also present in patches on the roof and the top bar of the rear hatch. I think the screenwashers have played a part here as it looks like the problem is worse in two areas which match up with the screenwasher jets spraying onto the roof. I used to use a strong screenwash mixture in winter because the ZX washers have a habit of freezing up, much worse than in other cars I've owned.

I'm now wondering what the best solution to the problem is. As there seems to be another coat of black paint underneath the top coat I'm thinking I can use some sort of abrasive compound or polish to remove the white powdery stuff and cut back to a uniform black colour. Then wax it to protect it for the future. Does this sound like a reasonable plan? If so, what compound, polish or wax would you recommend? Would there be any danger of making it worse by attempting to polish it down? How many coats of paint are there on a ZX normally and what colour would the factory primer be on a black ZX (so I know when to stop when I'm getting to the primer)?

In terms of the finish, I'm not too bothered about it being perfect. I would like to get rid of the white bits and dull black bits however. As long as it's all black and reasonably shiny that would be ok. Currently, where the top coat has come off, the coat underneath is black but not shiny enough. Do you think this coat could be polished up to a reasonable shine?

Obviously a rub down and respray would solve the problem (and I have done a bit of spraying in the past) but I haven't got a garage so I'm inclined to try to rescue the existing paint first if it's possible.
citronut
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x 92

Post by citronut »

you say its original paint and not had any paint work in the passed, it certainly sounds to me like it has been painted over the original coat but not been keyed, can you put some picys on here for us to see,

regards malcolm

ps.
were abouts are you
the_weaver
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Post by the_weaver »

Malcolm

I'm in South Wales. The car has been in the family since new, and I've owned it for the last 11 years, so I know that it definately hasn't been resprayed.

I'm posting a picture of the roof below. Hopefully, if I've done it right, you should be able to click on the thumbnail to get a high res version. If you want to see more detail then save the high res version to your computer and zoom in using some picture viewing software such as Irfanview. The resolution is 2016 x 1512 pixels so it should be possible to see quite a bit of detail in the picture.

Paul


Image
the_weaver
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Post by the_weaver »

Here are some more pictures:-

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uncle buck
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x 5

Post by uncle buck »

Wow that is a mess isn't it :cry:

It looks as though the lacquer has broken down & is starting to come off.

I believe all ZX's were painted with "Clear over Base" which means that the top coat is lacquer.
Most cars seem to be painted this way & have been for a few years now, at one time only metallic finishes had a lacquer top coat but even flat colours have it now.

Have you tried T-cuting a small area to see how it comes up?

Cheers.
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
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x 92

Post by citronut »

that is the lacqure coat breaking up, unless the car has had several layers of armour coat or some sort of paint protection slapped on,

the only other time i have seen this sort if affect is when the car has had some bad paint work done in its life,

i think i would be inclinde to rub it down with wet and dry, using a block of soap to keep the paper lubricated, the coursest beeing 800, but preferably 1200, the only thing with 1200 it will probably take an aufull amount of time,

but in saying that it will be easyer to buff back up afterwards,

so the finner the grit the easyer to buff, also try not to rub down the paint were there is no lacquer, otherwise you will end up with thin patches of at paint level

regards malcolm

ps.
i used to be a paint sprayer,
joss
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Post by joss »

this happens often to mercedes cars (including my w124) - so they sell a kit for fixing it up. it may be worth checking if there is a black one that will match your paint?
the_weaver
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Post by the_weaver »

Thanks guys, some very useful info there.

I didn't realize ZX's had "Clear over Base". As it hasn't had any armour coat or anything like that then it must be the lacquer that's coming off. I'll have a go with wet and dry and T-Cut when I've got some time and see what happens. I'll start off by hand but I have got a Bosch variable speed orbital sander if necessary, although I know that these machines can sand down to the metal in a split-second, so I'll only use it, with care, if I'm getting nowhere by hand. Joss - thanks for the info on the Mercedes problems. I'll see if I can find a repair kit.

A few questions:-

When you say to use soap to lubricate the wet and dry, does that mean that I should avoid using water?

Assuming I get it sanded down ok then what do I buff it up with? Are we talking about a fine rubbing compound or a polish or something, or just wax?

Is there any need to spray a clear coat back on or should I just aim to polish up the paint coat and leave it at that? Is the paint in a "Clear over Base" system tough enough to survive the weather without the clear coat?

Paul
citronut
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x 92

Post by citronut »

use the wet and dry wet and rub it across the block of soap, but yes keep it nice and wet /soapy, this will stop the paper draging, and no i would not recomend your sander for this job, otherwise you will almost certainly go through the colour coat,
also if this is the original factory lacquer coat the base colour coat will be egg shell (matt),

i thnk i would try a demo patch on an area which dose not stand out, then useing can of spray lacquer to see what the end result is

regards malcolm
uncle buck
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x 5

Post by uncle buck »

When ever I have used wet & dry to "wet flat"(called colour sanding by the yanks) I just put a bit of washing up liquid in some warmish water & use this as a lubricant. (never used the bar of soap method like citronut)
You need to keep the surface wet & the paper well rinsed...keep dipping it in the bucket of water...you will "feel" when the paper is cutting...let the paper do the work, you don't need to press on that hard... the lacquer will come off as a milky fluid.

The problem you are going to have is that you will more than likely flat through the black paint.....also it will be impossible to get rid of the edge. (where the lacquer is missing then it's not)

When you think you have went far enough rinse the area & dry it off. The area will be mat from the flatting. Now you polish this up with the T cut or a rubbing compound...most use Farecla G3 or similar. Keep this damp with water & it will be easier to use.
This will take quite a bit of elbow grease as the lacquer is normally quite hard. The finish will never be perfect but it will probably look a lot better than it does now.

See how it goes & let us know. :wink:
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
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x 92

Post by citronut »

the block of soap method is used whilst useing very fine grades of wet and dry, otherwise it cloggs up quite quikly, we alwasy used this method on high class paintwork in all the paint shops i have worked at,

we alway used block of carbolic soap,

also i would be very causious on useing rubbing compound, as i feel you will go through the colour coat very easy as it is not usualy very deap

regards malcolm
uncle buck
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x 5

Post by uncle buck »

Never heard of the soap method but then again I'm self taught, I haven't ever worked as a paint sprayer, but I have knocked out a few canny jobs in my time... :D :lol:

As you say the base coat is normally very thin & I think rubbing through it is very likely.

Cheers.
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
the_weaver
Posts: 438
Joined: 13 May 2008, 00:01
Location: UK
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Post by the_weaver »

Ok, thanks for the advice, I'm printing this out for reference. I'll avoid the power tools. I'll also be very careful with the compound if I decide to use it.

Some of the powdery stuff can actually be scraped off with a fingernail or a piece of wooden clothes peg leaving the paint unmarked underneath, so I might try that technique as well. In other areas the white stuff can be picked off in little chips. I think I need to use a different technique for the centre of each problem area than for the outer edges. As I go out from the centre I will need to use the wet and dry.

Malcolm - how would you buff the paint without a compound? Do you recommend just a lambs-wool type polishing cloth or bonnet without anything on it? Or would you use a glaze which is less abrasive than a compound?

If I decide to spray a new clear coat from an aerosol I suppose I only need to get the paint coat to a matt finish anyway as that is what was there originally. The clear coat will make the paint shine. If I don't apply a new clear coat then I will need to buff the matt paint to a reasonable shine.

Paul
citronut
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Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
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x 92

Post by citronut »

the only reason i said i would not use compound is you might go through the colour coat as it will be thin, but as uncle buck said Farecla G3 is quite a fine compound,, maybe try some on an inconspicuous area, i would have tried T CUT first, i agree if you are going to re/lacquer you will not need to buff, but if you are going to buff the colour coat and compound works you will need to go over it with T CUT as well, then a good WAX to seal it,

if you have a buffing machine you will be able to use a sponge buffing head with both compound and T CUT, whilst doing this use a water spray bottle to keep it wet

regards malcolm

ps.
that bonnet realy dose look like an after market paint job
the_weaver
Posts: 438
Joined: 13 May 2008, 00:01
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Post by the_weaver »

Malcolm

Thanks for the reply. I think I'm clear now about all the various stages that need to be done.

The car has only had two owners from new, one is my brother, the other is me. You're right about the bonnet looking bad though. The paintwork on the bonnet has always looked different to the rest of the paintwork, like it was painted in a different factory or something. To double check, I've sent my brother an email asking if the car was ever sprayed when he had it. I'll let you know what he says.

Paul
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