Advice for recovering injector washers and seals

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 04 Aug 2008, 16:21

Only two copper washers came out of my cylinder head when I removed the injectors, the rest won't budge. All suggestions welcome please.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 04 Aug 2008, 18:42

yep they do get stuck some times,
you need a small crancked pick or a small screw driver with the tip bent over, did you recover the cone shaped stainless steel nozle seals, from were the injector tip seats
regards malcolm

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 04 Aug 2008, 19:11

I have a few tools pointy enough to get behind the copper washer but they just bend at the shaft

I don't know what came off with the injector, I was expecting to see a long needle but there's a cylinderical object protecting all but the tip - I doubt tha'st what you mean by cone?

Otherwise, I think I can see a much smaller diameter bung in the head but Haynes tells me the washer and fire seal needs to come out before a "sleeve" will come out, whatever that is.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 04 Aug 2008, 22:30

No long needle, a very short one in fact, most of it is inside the injector with only about 1mm showing. In addition to the copper washer, there is indeed a 'fire seal' which stops the full combustion blast going up the side of the nozzle, its a sort of dished washer. Scrape the top of what you think is the copper washer to see if it is actually copper, it may have dropped off when you removed the injector and you are scraping at the head, the washers shouldnt be that difficult to remove.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 04 Aug 2008, 23:06

if you look right down in were the tip of the injector seats in the head, you will see a slightly domed surface, that is the fire seal, it will lift out as it only like a smal domed stainless steel washer almost the diamiter of the nozle end of the injector
regards malcolm
ps.
that injector is complete

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 05 Aug 2008, 16:32

I've been soaking the injectors in solvent which is proving successful with a little gentle brushing from a nylon soft brush so I must be doing something right. It's seems contradictory to imagine the environment the injectors must endure and to then consider them as "delicate".

However, I seem to have a habit of finding problems - I'm not complaining, I think I learn more this way but two copper washers came out very easily, the other two are well and truly stuck down, as are all the sleeves and all the fire seals.

I've been putting so much force into trying to lever out the copper washers that I'm risking damaging the threads (when it slips) but believe me, these sods are well and truly stuck. I've tried poking at them from the pre-chamber hole, hooking into the fire seals and pulling - nothing can move them.

I'll keep trying the more careful methods..... for now

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 05 Aug 2008, 16:40

hi Mike.. I maybe in a similar position later... god knows how I am going to remove injectors with head off car... my vice is tiny too...

Do you need to remove the washers, as they are putting up such a fight?

John

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 05 Aug 2008, 17:02

Hi John, I removed the injectors with the head just sitting on my workbench. A few good smacks on a 12 inch spanner with a rubber mallet got them loose (apart from one) only needing to counterhold the head with my elbow

AFAIK, it's best to replace the washers and fire seals as a matter of course and in the case of mine, I think at least two were leaking, one very badly. Not sure about the sleeves though but they can't come out until the copper washer is off anyway.

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 05 Aug 2008, 17:13

ok Mike

Out of interest are you changing head bolts... I notice they dont seem to be stretch types.. even haynes doesnt seem to say it's a must do...

J

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 05 Aug 2008, 18:16

How do I tell? Can stretch bolts be identified visually? But yes, I don't want to skimp on the head bolts for AFAIK, they are a use-once stretch type.

p.s. #4 copper washer has surrendered. I soaked them overnight and just now I picked away the gunk between the internal thread and outer circumference of the washer then, as I was trying to force the washer to move into the newly cleaned area, it lifted slightly and came away, feeling like it was held on with a rubbery sealant.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 05 Aug 2008, 18:58

what are these sleaves you talk about Mike, as there aint any sleaves to remove from the injector ports in the head
regards malcolm

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Aug 2008, 21:00

jgra1 wrote: Out of interest are you changing head bolts... I notice they dont seem to be stretch types.. even haynes doesnt seem to say it's a must do...

They are stretch types

Given away by the fact they're angle tightened.

I'd say it was very false economy to reuse them, given their cost...

citronut wrote:what are these sleaves you talk about Mike, as there aint any sleaves to remove from the injector ports in the head
regards malcolm

Nope, not in an XUD

Just the fire washers. I think the confusion arises from the description of the bottom of the injector. It does look like a sleeve and indeed can be replaced but only as part of an injector refurbish as the calibrated hole in it can wear (as can the pintle) and upset the spray volume and pattern.

Your injector looks normal enough Mike but handle them with extreme care, the sharp pintle (the end of the needle) is very delicate. Have you very carefully had one apart yet?

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 05 Aug 2008, 21:49

ooh

Haynes Xantia
Chapter 2B 16
section 27..

Cylinder head bolt examination..

will replace mine too.. I am many hours in already

Dont want to shortcut.. (more than usual)

think I thought they were not stretch bolts because they remain same thickness all the way down... not sure where I got that idea from..

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 05 Aug 2008, 21:54

I've finally lost it have I lads? I knew I was close so it had to happen I suppose.

I wasn't able to get a clear close up picture to show you what looks very much like a black plastic top hat inserted updside down with a central hole the size of a small peppercorn. I didn't think of the possibility it might be the injector port itself covered in black something because Mr Haynes, Chapter 4B,9 section 10,9 Fuel Injectors says, last line in paragraph reads "Recover the sleeves if they are loose. (see illustration)" "10,9c.... and the sleeve"

Well I don't have to remove them unless they need replacing but it would be better if I could examine them completely.

Under magnification Jim, the needle looks like a fine ballboint pen that's lost it's ball and is covered in thick black carbon apart from the very tip. Not nice

Soaking in solvent is helping soften some of it up and a fair bit has just dissolved. I'll open them up when I can clear some space to keep them safe and clean - half my flat is now a workshop

I've still to remove the valves.

As for head bolts, how much are they, £20?

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 05 Aug 2008, 22:27

£15 from GSF Mike, I think..