Resetting the timing

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MikeT
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Resetting the timing

Post by MikeT »

What's involved with setting the timing on these engines? I know you can lock them when changing the cambelt but as I'll be removing the head (ergo cam and pulley) is there much point or is it too risky/difficult to get the timing right afterwards without locking the IP pulley and flywheel first?

I'm only asking because it seems nigh on impossible to lock the timing on my own (rotating the engine while probing for holes) and my assistant is now on holiday for two weeks. I can't source a bendable 8mm rod/tube either, unless I buy £20's worth of copper tubing from B&Q :x
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Post by jeremy »

As long as everything is in its correct place (ie locked) when the head is fitted everything will be OK.

I found a junior hacksaw frame (as recommended somewhere here) was ideal for locating the flywheel hole. In fact the hole on my engine was slightly under 8mm (8mm drill wouldn't go through it - they're generally slightly undersized anyway- and the rod supplied by Draper was just oversized). The variation in size will no where near amount to a 'Tooth' and so the timing will be correct.

You are only positioning the gears so that the cambelt teeth fit the pulleys, not making any adjustments in the relationship between the pulleys and the shafts - so the fuel pump timing should be unaffected - as its adjusted by rotating the pump in relation to the block - and you will have no need to loosen it.
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Post by myglaren »

I haven't a clue whether this applies to your engine but there always used to be a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley to mark 1TDC.
As the timing is more a question of electronics and a sensor (on the flywheel, IIRC) It is likely even more important to know that the crank is at 1TDC (compression) so you can be sure when replacing the head that the camshaft is in phase.

A Tipp-Ex mark on the flywheel or crank pulley and some adjacent fixed point should do the trick, depending on accessibility.
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Post by RichardW »

Setting the timing is easy (ish). Get a 1m length of 8mm threaded bar (B&Q or similar) and chamfer the end and bend the last 6" up about 15°. You will find that if you poke this behind the starter in line with the joint between the starter body and solenoid it will find the 'chute' cast into the front of the block and slide towards the timing hole. You will know when it's in the timing hole, as it will hit the flywheel and make a distinctive ringing sound. As it is 1m long you can now stand at the driver's side wing, turn over the engine using the driver's wheel (*) with your left hand whilst you push on the timing rod with your right. If you watch the camshaft pulley, you will know when you are near the timing point as the timing hole in the cam pulley will head towards 4 o'clock. Once the flywheel timing pin has dropped in you can fit the cam and pump timing bolts (m8x40 required).

If you are removing the head though, I wouldn't worry too much, just set the timing on the cam shaft and pump and then whip the head off. Once it is off, you will probably want to rotate the crank anyway. When refitting, turn the engine over till you can get the flywheel timing pin in, check the cam is in the right place, refit the head, check all timing pins in, and refit the belt. ISTR though that when I did this on a BX the cam sprocket had to come off to get the head off, so I turned the crank back 45° to set all the pistons mid bore before I refitted the head, and then turned the crank forwards to the timing point after refitting the cam sprocket and setting the cam timing.

* make sure the passenger wheel is on the floor or chocked up when you do this, otherwise the diff rotates it backwards, and you wonder why the engine is not going round any more :roll:

Edit: PS I can send you 1m of 8mm copper tube if you want for a small consideration - about the size of a pint should do it!
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Post by citronut »

as Jeremy said, and i always lock the flywheel on my own witout the use of a second pair of hands,

firstly the locking pin i use a length of standerd cunifer (copper nical ) brake pipe, because on more than one ocation i have forgoten to remove it before cranking the engine, and with copper brake pipe you can just yank it out if it gets bent over,

the following after you have locked the D pump and cam sprocket, but before removeing the old timming belt

for insersion lay under the edge of the front bumper with your feet towards the N/S (left ) and you eyes just at the front O/S (right ) corner of the engine, now armed with your pin and a socket on a T bar and a tourch, fit the socket and T Bar onto the crank pully bolt, now the position you are laying you can point the tourch up the back of the starter motor to locate the hole it the crank case, you will need to put a right angeled bend in the brake pipe, the shorter end of pipe is to pocke into the hole whilst the longer end will need a curve to fit around the inside face of the starter,

once you have got the pin in the hole in the cranck case just gentlymove the cranck till it stops and then back the other way whilst with the other hand pushing the brack pipe against the fly wheel till it drops home,

bongo your assistant is now obsaleat

regards malcolm
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Post by MikeT »

Aha, so it can be locked without assistance, great! That technique is handy to know.

I have a junior hacksaw, a 1m-long, 4mm brass rod that could be "fattened" at one end if need be and I bought two 8mm locking bolts.
I thought a threaded bar would be too difficult to re-shape at whim - they are readily available locally though.

The sticking point for me is that I assume the cam and IP rotate twice per engine revolution? If so, how is the timing safeguarded by the locking pins on refitting - isn't it possible they could be 180 degrees off crank timing or am I not seeing the wood for the trees here?
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Post by citronut »

its the woodruff key for the trees

no Mike its the crank turns twice for every one turn of the cam and IP, because the pistons come to the top twice in every complete cycle, 1 to compres the fuel and 2 to expel the exhaust gas,

one way to tell when the cam/IP are in line or nearly in line whilst your head is under the wheel arch turnning the crank, is whatch the woodruff key as it comes up to the top of the crank shaft, line it up just at the point at which it is in line with the front edge of the tiny square block in the castting on the end of the carnk case, directly above the crank shaft

also im sure if you went to a local garage they would sell/give you a length of cunifer

regards malcolm
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Post by MikeT »

It's slowly sinking in, thanks - I don't need to lock anything for head removal. I was wanting to remove the IP to de-armour it but reading Citrojim's latest endeavours has put me off that idea for now until I know a little more.

I got my pulley ratios confused, Malcolm, but I knew what I meant about the cam being 180 degrees out :oops:
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Post by citronut »

if dearmouring the IP is the same as on a pug 406 a guy i used to share my work shop with and i, did this to a 406 TD few years ago, he undid all the bolts he could see/find, but the armour stayed attatched but floatting around, turned out they is two cotton real bushes screwed into the end of the pump under the armour, and running trough the armour plate from the engine side is a roll pin, going into a blind hole, so we used a small air cut off grinder and cut a slot in the top of the armour running in the line of the roll pin, once we had cut through enough to see the pin we driftted it out towards the engine,

bongo,

the armour is a right angled lupm of steel with the imobaliser electrics bondded on the inside face, used to cost around 170 squide, we just ran a switched live from the glowplug relay to the solanoid shutoff valve

regards malcolm
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Post by MikeT »

If the immobiliser circuitry is in there, I certainly don't want to break the armour! All I wanted was to get at the max fuel screw, if that's where it is, but it's not essential.

The deed is done now anyway, the cambelt is off and none of the locks are in place. Funnily enough, Haynes advises to lock the flywheel with a large screwdriver from under the starter - after removing splashguard and then the acu sphere!
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Post by jeremy »

I think Haynes are suggesting locking the flywheel with a large screwdriver while the pulley bolt is undone - and elsewhere locking it through the hole by the starter for timing purposes when replacing the belt.
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Post by MikeT »

Ah, that'll be it then. I take it the timing hole lock isn't strong enough for pulley removal, hence the large screwdriver. I just used the handbrake with it in gear to loosen the bolt. :lol:
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Post by CitroJim »

MikeT wrote: I just used the handbrake with it in gear to loosen the bolt. :lol:
You were lucky :lol: So often the handbrake cannot hold the torque required to crack off the bolt, especially if it was previously tightened by a gorilla as so many that I come across seem to be!
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Post by MikeT »

citrojim wrote:
MikeT wrote: I just used the handbrake with it in gear to loosen the bolt. :lol:
You were lucky :lol: So often the handbrake cannot hold the torque required to crack off the bolt, especially if it was previously tightened by a gorilla as so many that I come across seem to be!
Although I didn't have to use the starter motor whacking method to crack it, ala Citrojim 8) - just a bigger bar - the bolt did resist as fiercely as my white xantia so maybe I was lucky, the rusted disc must have aided friction tremendously :oops:
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Post by citronut »

i always get an assistant to poke a lever into the flywheel ring gear through the openning in the top of the gear box just below the thermostat housing, this way you dont put any strain on other components (like clutch, brakes or starter motor)

regards malcolm
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