Xantia 2.1 TD Power Loss?

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timbo101
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Xantia 2.1 TD Power Loss?

Post by timbo101 »

Hello everyone,

I recently bought a Xantia 2.1 TD SX as I wanted a decent tow car for my caravan.
Up until i bought it i had a Pug 405 Diesel non turbo estate and when i collected the xantia i could not believe the surge in power as i went through the gears it felt like a very powerful car. I have now had the car for a few months and that power doesnt seem to be there anymore.
Now it may just be me being used to the car so I am not noticing it any more but every time i pull away i concentrate and cant seem to notice the surge it used to have. Now it runs fine it just doesnt seem to have that oomph it used to have.
Any suggestions please...Many thanks
1997 Xantia 2.1 TD SX Estate
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Post by MikeT »

Whereabouts Dorset, if you don't mind me asking?

It could be you getting used to the power but what about the service items, when were they renewed? Loss of power can be air and/or fuel restrictions and/or loss of turbo boost to the fuel pump (does that apply to 2.1TD's?) and/or inlet. HTH :lol:
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Post by CitroJim »

Hi Timbo,

Yes, you could well be just getting used to the very flat power delivery of the 2.1TD. It's a funny old thing and totally unlike the 1.9TD. There is no rush, no surge, no sparkle, just a wall of torque from idle upwards that you very quickly get used to and take for granted. The 2.1TD is a real old-school slogger diesel whereas the 1.9TD feels more like a petrol engine in response.

Go out and drive a 1.9TD and see what I mean. You'll wonder where all the torque has gone and constantly be in the wrong gear :lol:

Has it been serviced recently and new fuel and air filters fitted. Always worth doing as a first step.

Now, it is worth doing a few checks. Does the Engine Management Light go out as soon as the engine starts? If stays illuminated for a little while after a start, this suggests the ECU has a stored fault and needs to be read.

Check the integrity of your turbo hoses. The one that runs right under your sump is easy to damage if you ground the car and it could have scuffs and pinholes in it. leaks anywhere will lower the turbo boost. Note that you'll never feel the boost "kick in".

Check your MAP sensor down by the RH side (as you look in the bonnet) of the intercooler. It has a small pipe going to the intercooler. Check it is OK and not perished or disconnected.

Is it returning good fuel economy? Careful driving should see between 45 and 50mpg no problem at all if all is happy.
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Post by Peter.N. »

Unlike the 1.9 they develope tremendous low down torque so you dont notice so much difference when the turbo comes in. It could be of course that you are not getting turbo boost, put your foot to the floor at about 1500 rpm and you should feel a marked increase in acceleration at about 2000 rpm, if not, check that the thin rubber pipe from the intercooler to the pump is still connected.

I reckon that the 2.1 is the best idi engine everproduced, its huge low down torque means that you rarely have to venture above 2000rpm giving superb fuel economy - better than the 1.9. In fact my XM estate will quite easily exceed 50 mpg whereas my wifes 1.9 ZX can only manage about 45.
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Post by CitroJim »

Peter.N. wrote:I reckon that the 2.1 is the best idi engine everproduced, its huge low down torque means that you rarely have to venture above 2000rpm giving superb fuel economy.
I totally agree Peter :D
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Post by timbo101 »

Hi all,

Very many thanks for all the replies, To be honest after driving it today i think it may just be that I am used to it now because I took it up to 70 today and it seems to get there effortlessly and will accelerate from 70 upwards quite happily. The only thing that concerns me is the fuel economy. You guys are telling me that the fuel should be quite good but I am finding it rather thirsty which I thought was ok because it was such a big engine. When I bought the car I checked whatcar and that said that arround town I would get about 30 miles to the gallon which I am getting but certainly not much more. I think it is well overdue a service which I will have done in a couple of weeks. I have only had the car for a couple of months and since I bought it I have had a new cam belt and water pump fitted and all three front spheres so a service is next. I noticed in the service record a oil change was done about 7,000 miles ago but i think that was all that was done. I suspect that the service is overdue as the heater stinks when I turn the heater on which I suspect is a manky pollen filter. What does a full service involve as I was just going to replace the fuel, air and pollen filters myself and get kwik fit to do an oil and oil filter change. The coolant and lhm was already replaced when I had the cam belt done so would a full service do anything else for me.
Many thanks guys..>Tim
1997 Xantia 2.1 TD SX Estate
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Post by rory_perrett »

30mpg does sound low but it depends where and how you drive it. Just got an average 52.3mpg out of my last tank full but thats being very careful ('cos of the price rise) and mostly fast A roads and motorways and not using it to go into town. Wife's Xsara HDi will go as low as 35 mpg when she's sat in stop start traffic for 8 miles going into work in the morning and over 60+ mpg when crusing down the motorway.

For servicing I do oil and oil filter every 6000 miles without fail. Pollen every year and I've stuck in a K&N air filter which I tend to clean every 30 - 40,000 miles.

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Post by CitroJim »

Tim,

If you ever find yourself in my neck of the woods, get in touch, pop in and see me and we'll give your car a diagnostics session, just to check all is tickity-boo in the electronics and sensors department.

Speaking of which, check the air temperature sensor on the turbo trunking near the inlet manifold is securely connected. Also, try disconnecting the vacuum feed to the EGR valve to stop it operating.

Does yours smoke? A good 2.1TD hardly ever smokes in my experience, the pump electronics keep a very tight rein on injection to the extent that smoke is very rare. Another loss of power/ poor fuel economy can be a blocked silencer or cat, the cat more likely and it can be removed and replaced with a straight-through pipe as it's not needed for the MOT :)

Your economy is definitely not up to what it should be but then again, the previous owner of mine, who admitted to wearing lead boots, used to compalin of very poor fuel economy. I must confess to being a very gentle driver with feathers for feet :lol:
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Post by myglaren »

Your economy is definitely not up to what it should be but then again, the previous owner of mine, who admitted to wearing lead boots, used to compalin of very poor fuel economy. I must confess to being a very gentle driver with feathers for feet
I tend to be somewhat heavy footed too and don't get the economy I expected, compared to the Xantia.

A Kiwi friend maintains that diesels need to work and I am too gentle with mine.

He recons that treating them kindly leads to gumming up the works and sooting up the exhaust system while working them hard keeps them running freely.

Any comments?
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Post by CitroJim »

myglaren wrote:A Kiwi friend maintains that diesels need to work and I am too gentle with mine.

He recons that treating them kindly leads to gumming up the works and sooting up the exhaust system while working them hard keeps them running freely.

Any comments?
He is absolutely right Steve :D Diesels thrive on hard work and need to be heavily loaded to work most efficiently. A diesel run off-load or very lightly for any length of time will soon soot up, hence the big cloud of smoke old-school diesels throw out when accelerating out of a 30 limit. Itis possible a lightly loaded diesel can over-fuel and excess fuel can run into the sump and contaminate the oil. This is nowhere near as serious as peterol contaminated oil as diesel has some lubricity built-in whereas petrol has not.

A lightly used diesel can choke its exhaust with soot, requiring a good "Italian Tuneup" to clear it out, often in glowing lumps. No long-term harm will be done though.

The secret of good economy on an IDI diesel generally and on the 2.1 specifically is to not "hang it out in the gears" (i.e. over-rev it) but to change up at no more than 3000rpm and then when cruise is reached in fifth, feather the throttle right back to just maintain cruising speed. It's easy to give it far more welly than it needs and all you are doing is needlessly burning diesel. The 2.1TD particularly can lumber along at just above idle in town as it has so much low-down grunt. On the other hand , there is nothing to be gained by revving a 2.1 beyond 3000 rpm. Generally it is happiest between about 1300 and 2500 rpm and it is amazing just how far back you can feather the throttle and still maintain adequate forward momentum.

Finally, in the quest for good economy, ensure your rolling resistance is as low as it can be by ensuring the brakes are not binding, even slightly, tyre pressures are right and you're not cannying excess weight around.
Jim

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Post by Penguin »

Crikey, the things you learn. I have been treating my new (to me) 1.9TD Xantia with kid gloves and feathered foot since I did my first 'distance' run in the search for increased mpg, but are you saying that I should be treating her a 'bit rough'! Am I also correct in my assumption that an 'Italian Tune Up' involves screaming the t*ts off her every now and then? If so, how often is 'every now and then'? Sorry about the lameness of my questions but I am new to oil burners being a petrol head for all my life.

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Post by CitroJim »

Penguin wrote: Am I also correct in my assumption that an 'Italian Tune Up' involves screaming the t*ts off her every now and then?
Spot on Penguin :D That is precsely the definition of an Italian Tuneup :lol:

It does not need to be done seriously too often but a mini Italian Job after an extended slog through a congested town is always recommended and not only that, it makes you feel good too!
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Post by myglaren »

citrojim wrote:
Penguin wrote: Am I also correct in my assumption that an 'Italian Tune Up' involves screaming the t*ts off her every now and then?
Spot on Penguin :D That is precsely the definition of an Italian Tuneup :lol:

It does not need to be done seriously too often but a mini Italian Job after an extended slog through a congested town is always recommended and not only that, it makes you feel good too!
Until the bloody speed cameras get you. :x
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Post by lolingram »

AKA the dynamic 'who's boss test'...
Spot on Penguin That is precsely the definition of an Italian Tuneup

It does not need to be done seriously too often but a mini Italian Job after an extended slog through a congested town is always recommended and not only that, it makes you feel good too!
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Post by timbo101 »

Hi All,

Firstly Jim thanks for the offer if I get up your way I will let you know and will pop in for a quick check up.
I noticed that you said these cras hardly smoke at all but mine does a little bit. It gives a little puff qhwn first started in the morning and if I boot it it does smoke a bit but no smoke at all when driving arround normaly.
Another thing is that I live in the centre of bournemouth which is congestion pretty much all the time so is never going to help with the fuel economy.
I have only had this car a few months and to be honest I do love it so will carry on until all the teething problems are ironed out. To be honest I dont think it has been serviced as well as I was lead to believe which probably isnt going to help. Since I have had it I have replaced the cambelt and water pump and all three front spheres. It has had all of its coolant flushed out and replaced and this weekend it is getting new oil and oil filter, plus I am going to fit a new air and fuel filter and pollen filter at the same time which should help and I will get a full service done on it when the MOT is sue at the end of august.
To be honest the fuel may not be as bad as I think it is just a lot thirstier than my old pug 405 diesel non turbo estate which I had for over two years plus the price of diesel round here now is getting stupid.
Diesel at my local tescos is £5.40 a gallon now and I am getting roughly 55 - 60 miles out of a tenner which is all arround town driving. I average 30 miles every day of town driving so I suppose it is going to be a little thirsty. All I worry about is how much its going to cost me in fuel when I tow the caravan which is one of the main reasons I bought it as the 405 struggeled on hills with the caravan and was told the 2.1 xantia was a great tow car and seeing as everyone says it isnt that quick but has tons of torque should be perfect.
Thats it for now but please keep adding the comments as it really help.
Thanks guys...Tim
1997 Xantia 2.1 TD SX Estate
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