1996 P Reg - 1.9TD Xantia - Extremely difficult starting

[coopertron]

Hello again guys,

Car is a 1996 P Reg Xantia 1.9TD with 136k on the clock.

Well after my previous post:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... sc&start=0

The problem now appears to have moved on from being an annoyance, to more of a show stopper.

A little while back, the car would fire ok, then idle roughly if you sat on the drive. Once you drove off, it was fine, and didn't do it once you drove a few hundred yards.


Now since yesterday before I went to work, I gave it the usual glow plugs until the light goes off, plus another 5 - 10 secs. Then tried to start - no joy. Turned over, but would not start.

I gave it another cycle of the glow plugs, and it still would not start. I tried again, same again.

Everytime, the engine turns over fine, and I noticed that there was a bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust as this was happening. The car staunchly refuses to start. If I try again and keep cranking it on starter, and press the throttle, and keep cranking for about a good 10-15 secs maybe then eventually it will fire, and croak into life. It then idles very roughly, like it was doing before, and almost sounds like it is mis-firing a little.


As with the original problem, once you have got it going, and driven for a short distance, everything is fine. It drives spot on.

Does anyone have any recommendations on this? I am considereing replacing the glowplugs first, to rule them out, and I still need to do the leak off pipes as recommended in my previous post above.

Thanks guys for any advice you might be able to give.

[CitroJim]

Going back over your previous post, the glowplugs should be OK. They don't catastrophically fail all at the same time.

My money is still on an air leak. As the fuel lift pump is part of the injection pump, it has to work hard to re-prime the lines all the way from the tank to the pump. An air leak will allow diesel to run back to the tank and effectively empty the lines and thus, they have to be re-primed each time.

The first thing you need to do is replace those leak-off pipes and then replace the pipe from the top of the filter housing with a length of clear pipe to see exactly what is going on. My bet is you'll find this pipe is emptying and being full of air when trying to start.

Does a really good pump of the priming bulb before attempting to start help? It will take about 20 pumps of it to prime the lines and fill the pump.

If the glowplus were duff, and given the fuel lines were OK, you'd see a considerable amount of white smoke out the exhaust whilst trying to start.

All your symptoms are typical of trying to start with a severe lack of fuel.

Replacing the fuel pipes is a far easier job than glowplugs. Glowplugs are often unjustly blamed for starting problems. If you want to see quickly if at least one is working, firstly ascertain that at least 11V is present on them when the orange light is on. Then take out the easiest to get to glowplug and very carefully connect it across a battery. Hold the glowplug with pliers and take care not to cause short circuits. If the glowplug is good, the last half inch or so of the tip will glow brightly after a few seconds. Note that they stay too hot to touch for a long time, hence the need to use pliers to hold it.

[deian]

I would also recommend priming the pump too. It does sound like fuel starvation, but just to eliminate things:

To know if the glow plugs are working (or not)= I'm not sure whether my technique would work to test the glowplugs, but obviously they draw current/voltage from the battery until the timer clicks;

So put a voltmeter across the battery with the ignition off, it should be around 12 - 13volts.

Now get an assistant to put the ignition on(not starter), and watch the voltage drop, it should drop significantly, if it's only a small drop then maybe some glow plugs are working, if there is no drop at all then there is something wrong with the timer circuit and there is no glowing plugs.

But I'm with jim on this one, the fact that it idles roughly means there is already an airleak somewhere, this may have gotten worse, do a quick check of all the pipes.

Of course, clear pipes are a wonderful idea, xantia 2.1td has then as standard.

[jeremy]

Have you changed the leakoff pipes? They're important on an engine with a Bosch pump and will let air into the pump which can cause bad running and starting- with a Roto-diesel they just leak and small.

[uncle buck]

Whilst I agree that the symptoms you are suffering point to an air leak I notice from reading this & the original thread that the glow plugs are only assumed to be working properly....Personally I would test them to rule them out!.....in my experience you shouldn't overlook anything when trying to fix a problem.

You will have to remove the link wire to the plugs & test each one individually.
I would also recommend testing the glow plug relay to make sure this is staying on for the correct amount of time, as I have seen these fail & only briefely supply the power to the plugs.

[MikeT]

I've just acquired another Xantia and it too has a starting problem which I'll be investigating later but does anyone have a complete rundown of exactly what needs to checked, how and in what order is best?

It would make a great addition as a sticky.

In my case, the car was described as a non-starter with suspected fuel pump failure (by Green Flag). However, I called the AA who put jump leads on, I primed the grenade (which was soft as butter) and with a blast of easystart up the intake it fired up within a few cranks. If the car does have starting issues, apart from a flat battery, that is a handy way to get you going again and also worth being included as a sticky IMO.

[coopertron]

Thanks for the responses so far guys.

I still havent replaced the leak off pipes, but I will be doing that.

This morning it is now a no start. Pumped away on the priming bulb before and after attempting starting for the first time. Plenty of cycles of the glow plugs, and pumping in between to no avail.

It just won't start now. I can see the battery is losing its ooooh as well with all the cranking its been doing...

I'm considering calling the recovery guys out in a couple of days, and getting their opinion on it as well.

[coopertron]

I had a guy out from the Rescue group this morning but he was bugger all use to be honest, he didnt have much of an opinion on it, just said it probably was an air leak somewhere. He undid the drain screw on the fuel filter housing, and their was an audible hiss as air was escaping. He basically then shoved some Surestart in the air intake, and then tried to start it, which worked.

I've replaced the leak off pipes, including the one going back to the pump (which was slightly bigger, and the new one doesn't fit as well as the old one but hey.

I also replaced the fuel filter, and shoved some injector cleaner in there.

This hasn't really made any difference at all.

The car is still idling as roughly as it did before, and was as difficult to start

The only thing I can see was a very small amount of diesel around the end of the priming bulb/grenade (far left of this pic) just to the left of the round circlip. I'm not sure if this is normal, or if this could be a little leak.



I didn't get round to checking the glow plugs today, as I kept getting interupted by the rain....

[admiral51]

that diesel around the priming bulb is not usual except for when its leaking.
if it has a bad airleak i suppose it could have actually pressurised (on the basis you heard a hiss) between priming bulb and fuel filter forcing the leak to become visible.
i know some garages will actually remove the return pipe at the tank-blank it off and then pressurise the feed line thus making any leak easier to trace
i would change the priming bulb and replace the clips with jubilee clips probably cost you no more than £10 - £12 screwfix/b+q sell them for central heating systems

no sooner than i found/cured my air leak mine has been starting fine cold and hot and i wasnt sure if it could have been glow plugs cos it started better warm than cold at first

Colin