Xantia air in fuel system

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 11 Apr 2008, 11:03

Hi i have a 1.9td 1998 R plate and im having real problems getting it started once started its fine

i have traced the problem to air ingress as ii can see bubbles in the line between filter and pump. i have changed leakoff pipes and filter but im a little stuck as to what to go for next
when its been run and then turned off and started straight away it fires first time but leave it a minute or so and it takes 3-4 turns.when running under high revs i can see small bubbles in the line from filter to pump so im assuming that the return is probably ok

i have noticed the pipe join on top of filter is slightly loose ie could turn the filter housing lid when removed from body. Off to get a new clip but should i just bite the bullet and get a new priming bulb or am i barking up the wrong tree

Colin

steviewonder7 · Unread post by **steviewonder7** » 11 Apr 2008, 11:29

Hi Colin,
I'm no expert at this,but I had a similar problem with starting for the very same reason's..Air....At first I thought it it might be the old favourite,the priming bulb which did show signs of leakage but only when I twisted the bulb and the leak showed itself under the bulb...so I changed it but the car still played up starting wise

.

Next I decided to try and find out where this leak was coming from so I replaced the fuel line from the priming bulb to the filter with a clear hose.This showed me that air was still getting into the system and I almost suspected that the new priming bulb was faulty,but upon inspection it seemed fine.
So.....I thought lets try the fuel lines before the priming bulb and sure enough I found the leak in a right b*****d place on the firewall below the doseur brake unit.This area is tight to say the least and you need to be a contorsionist to manipulate your hand(s) to do any work,the timing covers and turbo piping are in the way.
On my car it turns out that the fuel feed and return pipes are held in a rubber bracket (for want of a better way of describing it).
If you can get your hand(s) in there you'll find the fuel pipes 'join 'here and thats where my leak was and bad one at that

I renewed the pipes/hose in question and have so far had no further starting problems.

I've also heard that the fuel filter housing's are prone to leaking as thay are made of some sort of plastic..that would have been my next venture to look at for leaks.
Hope that helps and I'm sure those more experienced on this forum will help further

ATB Steve

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 11 Apr 2008, 14:56

If you can park your car on a steep downward slope, so that the fuel tank is higher than the engine, you should be able to see a fuel leak where the problem is.

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 11 Apr 2008, 15:50

just a quick update

have put clear pipe from priming bulb to filter no bubbles in that line at all but i still have a few small bubbles from filter to pump esp on high revs

im thinking now that its possible that its the housing maybe a trip to the scrappy

Colin

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 11 Apr 2008, 16:17

Hi Colin,

Before you do.... I think I was advised that small amounts of air is par for the course with an old car and shouldn't affect starting noticeably. In fact, my white xantia always started first time yet when revved, I could see small bubbles going to the pump.

What about the glow plugs?

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 11 Apr 2008, 19:23

Right then anther update

Have replaced the fuel line from priming bubble to the filter housing good lord what a waste of diesel

with clear pipe and rather than run the bend in the pipe to join at the filter housing horizontally ive run the bend up and over the breather pipe (crankcase??

).
ever since doing this it has been starting on the 3rd crank of the engine even when left for an hour or so and no large bubbles just a few smaller ones under high revs

ill hold off on the real celebrations till i try and start it in the morning

Mike thanks for the info about some bubbles in the system being normal thought i was going to mad trying to get rid off them now ill leave well alone well atleast till the morning

Just for information purposes i got my clear fuel line with some kind of internal reinforcing

from Hypehose cost me £4.40 for 2 metres. when i get my hydraulic feed pipe sorted thats where ill get it from cos they are reasonable priced and the staff really do know what they are talking about even if i dont

Thanks for all your help

Colin

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 11 Apr 2008, 19:39

Good work Colin

Just shows how much havoc a bit of air causes in diesel lines 8)

Mike, you are quite right, a few small bubbles every now and again are inevitable really. I have clear pipe on my 2.1TD all the way from the priming bulb and I see them every now and again.

If all is good Colin, you may well find the car starts easier from stone-cold than it does hot. My old 1.9TD always starts best when it has been left a week or so. It then starts instantly then but when hot, it's like yours, 3 or 4 turns.

I reckon it's all to do with heat in the fuel, a cold pump and fuel will be a little thicker and may pump better than warm, thin fuel in a warm pump. It's a general rule I have found with all Bosch pumped cars I've had. Lucas pumped cars always start better hot though

My EPIC pumped 2.1 takes about two rotations to start from cold and then wehn hot, it's instant.

The exception is Dad's NA 1.7 diesel 205 with Lucas pump. Under any conditions it starts with about half a rotation. After the first cold start it never then even wants glowplugs to start.

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 11 Apr 2008, 19:53

I must admit to being a little suprised at how many rotations it takes to start the 1.9td.
even though i had a problem with air it seems that about 2-3 rotations is about average.however i do have a 1.9d n/a and that starts almost instantly it doesnt really sound as if it does 1 full rotation even when cold i think i may be spoilt with that one and long may it continue as SWMBO has decreed that she is going to have use of the TD once i get everything sorted

Colin

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 11 Apr 2008, 20:57

There's a good reason why the NA starts more easliy than the turbo; it runs a significantly higher compression ratio and thus it generates more heat and pressure with each piston stroke. Also, and i don't know how significant it is but it has an easier air inlet path when starting. No stalled turbo in the way.

For my money, the Lucas CAV DP pump is a superior pump to the Bosch VE. It does not suffer in the same way with air leaks and although it has a propensity to leak, it is a lot easier to repair than a Bosch. I know it hates veg. but then with the price differential between diesel and veg. getting less all the time, it's not such an issue nowadays. Leaks aside, and given good diesel they are incredibly reliable. They give great economy.

The CAV DP200 pump first appeared in the early 50s and was used extensively on tractors where they just went on and on, albeit often leaking like a seive! The Lucas/RotoDiesel/Delpi DPC203 series used on XUDs is just a development and as far as I know, is still in production to this day. Even the Japs made a copy under licence just as the French did with the RotoDiesel.

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 12 Apr 2008, 09:30

i think i can start the celebrations in earnest now

went to start the car this morning after having left it for approx 14 hours and she started on the second rotation

hopefully thats one problem crossed off the list now for the blower mod

Colin

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:26

now things have been sorted and she starts as she should and i now have some heat from the blower i thought id have a go at something technical like trying to includes some pics of the new beast

thanks again for all your help in getting this far with it

Colin

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:46

Looks really great Colin

I was just saying in another thread how the Xantia pulls off quite a trick by looking really, really good in silver. A feat no other car can quite seem to manage. Most just end up looking drab...

Yours begs a question. My Estate is an R reg one like yours but it has black bumpers and side trims. It's the only late MK1 I've seen like this as all others seem to have colour-coded bumpers and side trims. Perhaps it's because my estate is a poverty-spec one perhaps... Or is it because it's white?

Penguin · Unread post by **Penguin** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:46

Interesting hearing about starting issues with Xantias (Xantiae?). I had a Non Turbo ZX for a short while (Lucas pump) and it would start fine when cold but instantly when warm. My new Turbo Xantia (Bosch pump) starts very well from cold but doesn't like starting when hot unless I let the Glow plugs do their thing first in which case it will start first time. I thought maybe my engine was on the way out but this may not be the case and just be a trait of this type of engine/pump configuration?

Cheers

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:53

Penguin wrote: I thought maybe my engine was on the way out but this may not be the case and just be a trait of this type of engine/pump configuration?

Nope, it is my experience that the Lucas pump is always the better starter when warm. My Lucas pumped cars have always been great starters hot or cold but all my Bosch pumped ones have started fine cold but always take a few spins when warm/hot.

I'm a great fan of Lucas pumps and rate them superior to Bosch pumps in every respect. They are not nearly so fussy over air as the Bosch. See my posts earlier in this thread for a bit more on my Lucas v Bosch thoughts!

admiral51 · Unread post by **admiral51** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:59

citrojim wrote:
Yours begs a question. My Estate is an R reg one like yours but it has black bumpers and side trims. It's the only late MK1 I've seen like this as all others seem to have colur-coded bumpers and side trims. Perhaps it's because my estate is a poverty-spec one perhaps... Or is it because it's white?

i suppose it could have been hanging around in the dealers for a while before being registered Jim,it may not really be that late a MK1 ??
My other one is grey and is late 1996 P plate and ive never seen a grey one with colour coded bumpers and trim but i expect i must now take evasive action from all those who have seen/owned one

will take some good pics of the interior once SWMBO has cleaned it says i wont do it well enough

who am i to stand in her way ill stand to one side with a can of beer and give pointers bit like she does when i do the washing up

Colin