Xantia drive belt tensioner? EDIT air con seized

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 15 Mar 2008, 18:23

Finally able to inspect this problem today
Anyone know how to / if I can repair/replace pulley on air con compressor?
It's seized
Which is wot caused all the following/above
cheers
j

Re: Xantia 1.9TD (+aircon) auxiliary drivebelt tensioner (not spring type) -- does anyone know a bodge/workaround to help me?

Hello. Am new to this forum but having searched existing posts it seems all previous questions on this topic relate to the spring-type automatic tensioner on 2.1-litre engines.

Mine is the type that requires inserting a rod through the hole, etc, as per illus 15.22 on page 1B.14 of the Haynes manual....

This is the 3rd belt I've replaced (so I know it's the right size). I followed all the instructions etc and it tested OK for several minutes and at various engine speeds (hardly any squeal or slippage once it settled down) -- so I drove a mile to the filling station, after which the car would not start.

It was as if the battery could not turn the motor over. No amount of heavy-duty jump-starting by friendly mechanics at the garage next door helped. I GreenFlag'd the car home, bought another battery but no joy.

It is true to say that the automatic tensioner is probably unserviceable. When you put enough tension on the belt, the top tensioner is rubbing against the timing-belt cover.

Last time I replaced the belt I could not stop it squealing intermittently, so took it to the Citroen dealer. They said the auto tensioner needed replacing (quoted £350, saying the engine needed to come out, and that the part itself costs £180) but the mechanic said for £80 he'd try to tighten it up to keep me going. Which he did. And it lasted for just over a year.

If you have had the patience to read through all this, my questions are:

1) Has anyone any idea what the dealership mechanic did that I didn't (or couldn't)?

2) Is it possible to replace that tensioner without taking the engine out?

3) Any ideas why the engine won't turn over? Could it be that something that the drivebelt drives - coincidentally - has seized up? Or could I have tightened the manual tensioner at the bottom too much?

4) How does that automatic tensioner work anyway? What's going on behind the instruction No.28 (page 1B.14) that says "Unscrew the manual adjustment bolt so that the drivebelt is just tensioned enough to remove the rod from the back of the bracket. The automatic adjuster will now keep the drivebelt correctly tensioned." It really doesn't behave that way.

All thoughts welcome!

Post by **CitroJim** » 15 Mar 2008, 19:34

Hi Jeremy and welcome to the forum

I know these tensioners well, not from Xantias but from Pug 405s. A certain amount of belt thrashing is perfectly normal just above idle and as long as they don't thrash or squeal at normal running speeds, no worries.

I've never used the rod setting method, I've always just tensioned the belt on the lower Allen bolt adjustment until it is just tight enough and behaving itself with the aircon running. They do need to be tight though.

I reckon your main problem is that one or both of the tensioner jockey wheels has either seized or broken up and one or the otehr has been on the point of seizing for some time.

The mechanic, I think, tightened the belt up incredibly tightly to mask the real fault.

You can change both tensioners with the engine in-situ but it is likely you'll have to remove the alternator and/or the hydraulic pump to do the top one. Both are a challange but not such a challange as pulling the engine out!

The belt has a tenacious grip and a failure of a tensioner jockey wheel (or anything else it drives) could well stop the engine turning over.

You'll have to have the belt off to see what has happened. Another possible contributory cause could be the failure of the crank pulley/damper. This is a pulley in two sections with a rubber ring between them. These do deteriorate and if it has failed, it will cause all the probems you have. It may have partially disintegrated and jammed against the engine block.

Yet an other possibility is the aircon compressor front bearing failing. These usually fail over a period of time before failing catastrophically.

It is a very difficult bearing to replace and a replacement compressor is the best option. Once the belt is off, it'll be easy enough to see what has failed.

Keep us posted!

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 16 Mar 2008, 08:41

Thank you Jim, I replaced the manual (lower) tensioner a couple years ago -- its failure was the cause of the first belt going.

And I know the belt has to come off again to see if anything is seized; I was just so peed off by the dang thing, having put it all back together again, that I thought I'd pick some brains first. Encouraging you saying that the top tensioner can be replaced without removing the engine (something I cannot do here on my gravel drive!) but having read through a zillion posts on this forum about the difficulty in removing the alternator it is not a task I undertake lightly. Staring at it yesterday I was struggling to work out how to get to all the bolts etc, never mind those holding the tensioner on....

I'm still not clear how that auto tensioner (the upper one) is supposed to hold itself upright. Is there some king of spring in it? Maybe that's what has failed, because the more you tighten the lower tensioner, the harder the upper one presses against the timing belt cover.

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Mar 2008, 09:03

Hi Jeremy,

There is indeed a big spring that keeps the top tensioner pressed down. I tried to get a diagram of it but at the moment the Citroen spares site http://service.citroen.com is down for maintenance. As soon as the site is back up, I'll post up a diagram.

The main problem seems to be that the tensioner seizes on its shaft and gets well and truely stuck in one position. Without the spring loading it is impossible to set the belt tension correctly.

The alternator on a 1.9TD is not half so difficult to remove as is sometimes stated to be. It looks tricky but if you remove the turbo rubber air pipe between the intercooler and rigid pipe that comes from the turbo, the alternator will just and just slide out after gently easing the radiator top hose out of the way. Once the alternator is out of the way, all will then become nice and clear!

There is a little unwritten rule. However impossible a part looks to remove, it can usually be just done although much lateral thought will be need and rather a lot of contortions. I thinks the designers were big fans of jigsaw puzzles or tetris....

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 16 Mar 2008, 11:14

I think the designers were big fans of jigsaw puzzles or tetris....

Oh yes. And worse.

I've had to change the clutch cable-to-pedal clip. Took two of us several days to work that one out, and I've still got the scars.

(Tip: 2-foot screwdriver & some duct tape!)

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 16 Mar 2008, 11:26

is that dealers price of £350 just for the labour or for the total job, if its for the later this means they are only chaarging £170 for labour ,to remove and re/fit the engine, i would have thoght they would charge a lot more than that

regards malcolm

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 16 Mar 2008, 13:52

That's what they said verbally. I took it to mean the whole cost but you're probably right: labour alone. Suffice to say it was far more than I could/would pay, especially as the car has done 170k miles and would probably fetch less if I tried to sell it!

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Mar 2008, 18:16

Jeremy,

As promised, some diagrams..

This is the early type:

And this is the later one:

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 17 Mar 2008, 07:41

Thanks, Jim that is really helpful. It is definitely the earlier one. Will now have a closer look.
cheers
Jeremy

Post by **RichardW** » 17 Mar 2008, 07:56

Hi Jeremy,

I had just this trouble with my last Xantia. I managed to make a temporary fix:

Aux belt bodge

The car (now sold on) is still running like that. One other thing worth noting is that aftermarket belts seems to be quite shiny and stiff and seem to make the problem worse. You need to get the belt off and establish why the engine won't turn over - I had an alternator seize on a BX TD and it stalled the engine, and wouldn't restart with the belt still on.

It is possible to change the tensioner in-situ - you need to remove the HP pump and then the alternator to get to the tensioner mounting bolts. Took about 4 hours to do it on my mate's car.

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 17 Mar 2008, 09:57

Thanks Richard, I did read that post and wondered if it would apply to my problem... now I know!

I take it you simply aligned the holes, inserted the rod and fixed it permanently in place? And it didn't shake free? (Would a nut & bolt or split pin or similar do the job, too?)

A brilliant workaround, if I may say so. Until I read these posts I'd have been too scared to try something like that.

But of course from everyone's comments it seems there's something seized as well, so that needs investigating first.

Cheers, all, for your continuing advice. Wish I'd found this forum a couple years ago. There's so much that is familiar -- squealy belts... leaking tailgate... blower motor that needs a kick to get it going... rusted-out bracket at the top of the hydraulic strut... snapped clutch cable clip... buzzing noise behind dashboard... glowplugs impossible to get to...

etc etc etc

Yet, apparently like many of you, I am reluctant to give up on the old beast. Explain that if you can.

Certainly I am a confirmed fan of the 1.9TD engine.

Post by **RichardW** » 17 Mar 2008, 13:04

There was enough spring in the tensioner to hold the rod in - I had to lever the tensioner against the engine mount, then stick the rod on and let the tension go - it did flap about at first, hence I tie-wrapped it to the HP pump mount. You could put a bolt in but there's f'all access to either end, and you need to be careful nothing (not much anyway) is sticking through to the belt side of the tensioner, as the belt runs over this region in normal operation.

I'm not sure it's an ideal solution - after all Citroen must have put that tensioner there for a reason! It gets you out of a hole though....

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 29 Mar 2008, 10:44

Finally able to inspect this problem today
Anyone know how to / if I can repair/replace pulley on air con compressor?
It's seized
Which is wot caused all the following/above
cheers
j

Post by **CitroJim** » 29 Mar 2008, 11:10

Hi Jeremy,

Sorry to hear that

These Air Con Links might be of some use hopefully although doing the clutch looks like a bit of a job.

In fact, I have a Sanden compressor here with the same problem as yours. If I get a few moments this weekend, I'll have a look around it and look into the job.

I've had it for over a year now, paitiently waiting for the right time to look at it. Seems it might have come

jeremyonbass · Post by **jeremyonbass** » 29 Mar 2008, 14:05

Thanks for that link, Sect 14 of the service manual PDF shows the clutch exploded & how to get it off etc etc.
It does look a bit of a chew-on, though -- special spanner, bearing pullers and such...
Head-scratching time, now; must determine if it can be done in situ without removing compressor & with home-made jury-rig tools. Hope I don't need new shim/circlip/key/nut kit or anything.
Even so it would appear that the compressor has been running dry for a while, which I assume means it's totally u/s. If so, the car's probably a scrapper, given what it would cost to have someone else replace it. Discharging refrigerant and whatnot is not an option here.
If only I could bypass the aircon altogether!