Possible Injector Pump ?

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 07:44

Got a Peugeot Partner 1.9 2001. Driving along ok when there was an audible pop from under the bonnet and it cut out.

I can suck fuel from the feed between the filter and diesel pump. Taken an injector pipe off and there is nothing coming out.
Unforunately there is a load of electronic wizardry on the car such as crank sensor, throttle sensor etc.

Given that there was a pop sound, could this be the injector pump seals blowing ?
Is it possible that a faulty sensor or even the ECU could lead to the injector pump shutting down ?

Thanks

Stu

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:00

Hi Stu and welcome

That "pop" is just a little worrying. How loud was it?

To do a full diagnosis we'll need to know what type of pump you have fitted. The type fitted is very significant. It'll usually be either a Bosch or a Lucas.

Normally pumps are very reliable and they don't normally suddenly die unless something catastrophic happens. Your problem could be as simple as the stop solenoid failing or as bad as the pump seizing.

If it has a Lucas pump, these can fail catastrophically if they run on veg. oil and in quite low ratios too. The rotor head seizes and the drive shaft then intentionally shears to protect the cam belt and valve train. Bosch pumps hardly ever suffer this problem.

If a sensor fails, normally all that happens is the ECU goes into "limp home" mode and retards the timing fully.

If you slip off the timing belt and the pump rotates very freely, it has failed catastrophically. If you spin a good pump by hand you'll feel a number of "compressions" as it rotates.

Hope that helps Stu, come back with more detail and we'll take it from there

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:02

Thats great advice. I'm going to do that later today

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:14

The throttle pontometer (Spellling???) on top of the pump is stamped as Lucas but there is a plate on the pump body that reads something like Delphi.
Do you think its a Lucas or Bosch pump ?

Stu

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:25

That's a Lucas pump Stu,

I meant to say in my earlier Post, if the "pop" was loud, this can be just the noise resulting from a failed cambelt. That would give apparantly the same symptoms, given the pump is driven from the cambelt.

Does the engine seem to spin over faster and more quietly on the starter than it used to?

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:27

I've checked the cambelt and its fine. The engine rotates and sounds normal without any valve / piston contact.
Stu

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 08:38

Brilliant. How much do you know about pump numbers (In case it is that)

The pump we have on the car is marked Delphi R8448B371C. Underneath says code 402113LUF. WOD D6CDMLP12

I can get a replacement pump but it has the number R8448B371B
Underneath it has other numbers but they are not the same.

It looks the same.

Stu

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 16:02

Definately the pump Jim. Now all I need to do is find one...

Stu

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Mar 2008, 18:31

Sorry to hear that Stu,

Now, the replacement you have withone letter different in the part. No. should be OK but in using it you may run into all kinds of difficulty with the immobiliser if one is fitted.

On those pumps, I'm not sure if the pump, ECU and immobiliser module, which I guess is the RFID one with the chip in the key, are all keyed together and will only work as a set without professional reprogramming by a diesel specialist.

The ECU and immobiliser on my Activa (which has an RFID key immobiliser) are definitely a matched pair.

Time to seek the advice of the pros I'm afraid

How did you determine it was definitely the pump Stu?

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 20:08

Took your advice and popped the cam belt off. The pully on the end of the pump can be rotated freely with one finger.

Stu

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Mar 2008, 21:12

stuartadair wrote:Took your advice and popped the cam belt off. The pully on the end of the pump can be rotated freely with one finger.

Stu

Did you check the pump pulley woodruff key on the off-chance although highly unlikely.. Worth a look perhaps..

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 05 Mar 2008, 21:40

Yes give that a look over. The actual shaft appears to be turning but without any resistance.
Stu

Post by **CitroJim** » 05 Mar 2008, 22:05

stuartadair wrote:Yes give that a look over. The actual shaft appears to be turning but without any resistance.
Stu

That is it then Stu, the rotor head has seized and the shaft has sheared

It happens when the rotor head runs short of lubrication for whatever reason. It has very tiny clearances and if starved of cooling and lubricating fuel it rapidly heats itself up and welds itself together. The shaft has a deliberate shear-section to avoid further damage should this occur. Lots of people have found this to their cost when they try to run a Lucas pump on vegetable oil or poorly produced biodiesel. It could possibly be caused by water getting into the pump from a bad batch of diesel or a duff filter.

Needless to say, the pump is irrepairable

Lucas pumps are very sensitive to things like this. They work great as long as they always run on good clean, fresh diesel. Give them even a sniff of anything bad and they quickly throw their toys out of the pram.

Bosch pumps are as tough as old boots and could most likely pump lard quite happily

Lots of reading about it here: http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum

They may even be of help in finding a replacement pump.

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 05 Mar 2008, 22:45

Is this a 1.9 XUD engine or the 1.9 DW8 engine ?

stuartadair · Post by **stuartadair** » 06 Mar 2008, 06:08

To be honest Wheeler I'm not too sure. All I know (Thanks to Jim) is that its a Lucas pump.

Its veg oil that killed the car. It actually belongs to my brother in law and we knew Lucas pumps dont like veg oil but the plate on the pump body says Delphi so thought it would be ok.

I run a 2001 Transit Mk6 and do about 35K pa running a 90% veg oil mix through a Vow2 (F) heater. Its a Bosch pump and will last forever.

Still looking about for a pump at the moment. Have tried findapart etc but no luck. He came up with this crazy idea of taking a standard injector pump from a 405 which he believes is the same block, without any electronic guff on it and trying that on.

What I dont understand is why complicate things ? As I mentioned my Transit runs perfectly well with a basic diesel engine, no complicated electronics at all - What the hell posessed "Pierre" to add electronics to an injector pump.