Hi everyone,
I've just bought a 1999 Xantia Estate 2.0 Exclusive.
I had the classic problem with it not going into gear, which I found to be the gear selector cable (now replaced!)
It seems to be running great, but I don't have a handbook and want to check the suspension is all OK before I head off to the Alps in about 2 weeks time. Are there any tests I can do to make sure all is as it should be please?
Thanks
Checking Over Xantia Estate - Newbie Citroen Owner
Moderator: RichardW
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49658
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6204
- Contact:
Hi Nobby and welcome to the forum 
You'll really get to love the estate. A very useful and versatile vehicle.
Checking the hydraulics is easy.
From a cold start, say after an overnight stop, time how long the STOP light takes to go out, indicating the system is up to working pressure. It should be no more than 15 - 20 seconds. The car should not sink appreciably overnight, nor should the back-end sink on startup and then rise.
Listen for "regulator tick" from the pressure regulator down under the starter motor by the accumulator sphere. The tick rate should be well in excess of 30s and should be measurable in minutes. If the tick rate is very rapid this shows your accumulator sphere is worn out and needs replacement.
Engine running with suspension at normal height, bounce each corner of the car. The rear suspension should feel very soft and easy to push right to the bump stops. The rebound should be well damped.
The front should behave in a similar way but will be considerably stiffer than the rear. If any corner feels rock hard or the rebound is poorly damped, your spheres are at the ends of their life and should be replaced.
Set the suspension on high and let the car rise. Check the LHM level. The orange "coolie hat" in the sightglass should be between the two red rings. Top up if necessary.
Set the suspension to low and check it falls smoothly to the lowest setting with no creaks or groans. Go back to high again and after its reached full height, set to normal. Check the fall from high to normal is smooth.
Open the tailgate and sit on the sill. The car should sink and then rise to compensate for your weight. You can do this at the front by opening the bonnet and sitting on the slam panel.
Check your LHM. It should be a nice bright green. If it is yellow or brown it is time to change it.
Hope that helps. Come back if anything not clear and enjoy your trip to the Alps
You'll really get to love the estate. A very useful and versatile vehicle.
Checking the hydraulics is easy.
From a cold start, say after an overnight stop, time how long the STOP light takes to go out, indicating the system is up to working pressure. It should be no more than 15 - 20 seconds. The car should not sink appreciably overnight, nor should the back-end sink on startup and then rise.
Listen for "regulator tick" from the pressure regulator down under the starter motor by the accumulator sphere. The tick rate should be well in excess of 30s and should be measurable in minutes. If the tick rate is very rapid this shows your accumulator sphere is worn out and needs replacement.
Engine running with suspension at normal height, bounce each corner of the car. The rear suspension should feel very soft and easy to push right to the bump stops. The rebound should be well damped.
The front should behave in a similar way but will be considerably stiffer than the rear. If any corner feels rock hard or the rebound is poorly damped, your spheres are at the ends of their life and should be replaced.
Set the suspension on high and let the car rise. Check the LHM level. The orange "coolie hat" in the sightglass should be between the two red rings. Top up if necessary.
Set the suspension to low and check it falls smoothly to the lowest setting with no creaks or groans. Go back to high again and after its reached full height, set to normal. Check the fall from high to normal is smooth.
Open the tailgate and sit on the sill. The car should sink and then rise to compensate for your weight. You can do this at the front by opening the bonnet and sitting on the slam panel.
Check your LHM. It should be a nice bright green. If it is yellow or brown it is time to change it.
Hope that helps. Come back if anything not clear and enjoy your trip to the Alps
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
Thanks Jim that was really helpful and a nice welcome!
The stop light goes out immediately after starting the engine, so I guess that suggests a fault somewhere? (The vehicle is rising, but no stop light).
The ticking is quick, perhaps every 5 seconds, so I guess the accumulator sphere is worn out and I'll look at replacing that first. Great to be able to understand that quickly, and thanks for the advice.
I tried the corners of the car, and I'd describe them as 'firm' rather than rock hard, and I'm guessing they may be on thier way out too? Do you think I should I change the accumulator sphere and see if this improves things or just get the lot done in one go? What do you think please?
The coolie hat is above the rings, in fact the bottom ring on the coolie hat is on the top ring... mmm.
I think I have a few jobs to do before the road trip! Any comments very welcome!
The stop light goes out immediately after starting the engine, so I guess that suggests a fault somewhere? (The vehicle is rising, but no stop light).
The ticking is quick, perhaps every 5 seconds, so I guess the accumulator sphere is worn out and I'll look at replacing that first. Great to be able to understand that quickly, and thanks for the advice.
I tried the corners of the car, and I'd describe them as 'firm' rather than rock hard, and I'm guessing they may be on thier way out too? Do you think I should I change the accumulator sphere and see if this improves things or just get the lot done in one go? What do you think please?
The coolie hat is above the rings, in fact the bottom ring on the coolie hat is on the top ring... mmm.
I think I have a few jobs to do before the road trip! Any comments very welcome!
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49658
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6204
- Contact:
Hi Nobby,
No worries A 5 second tick and the STOP light going out almost straight away is a sure sign the accumulator and indeed all the other spheres are on their last legs.
Get the accumulator replaced as soon as possible as a "flat" one imposes a severe strain on the pressure regulator and may lead to damage to the pressure regulator.
I'd be tempted to replace all of your spheres before your trip. There are plenty of wise words on here for doing the job. The first requirement is a good sphere removal tool. A normal strap wrench just won't be up to the job. It may just do the front suspension spheres but it'll struggle with the accumulator due to it's somewhat difficult location. The rears are the most difficult.
I've just noticed you have an Exclusive. That'll have Hydractive suspension. You will have a suspension switch on your dash to select between normal and enthusiastic modes with a symbol on the switch that looks a bit like a spring. You have more spheres on an Exclusinve too and one is a little hard to get at for replacement.
There are a few other tests to undertake on a Hydractive system and will explain why yours felt firm rather than very soft. Basically, Hydractive suspension has two modes, hard and soft. The default mode is hard when the car has been switched off and all doors closed for 30s. The suspension switches to soft mode when a door is opened. the suspension stays in soft mode when dribing except under heavy cornering, hard braking and hard acceleration. The switch selects one of two thresholds for when hard mode kicks in.
Test hydractive like this: Start up and let the system get to pressure and switch off. Shut all doors and then bounce the rear whilst listening for a faint hum under the car. Bounce the rear. The rear should feel very soft for 30s. You should then hear a distinct click and the suspension should go very firm as hard mode switches in. Start up for a bit, let pressure rise again, switch off and do the same test at the front.
Mind you, with a flat accumulator, this test may not work.
The Hydractive system has a very common fault with its controlling electrovalves (the electrovalves are what you can hear humming and clicking - they select hard and soft modes by switching in an out the centre Hydractive spheres. basically a diode encapsulated in the electrovalve coil goes open-circuit and they fail to switch.
Have a look at this link Nobby. It's for an Activa but these are the same in the Hydractive department, just ignore the Activa-specific bits!
The thread contains a good bit on electrovalves and how they fail. More importantly, it tells you how you can cheaply repair them
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=23312
You'll find within that thread a link to the Citroen Technical Guide. This is an excellent "bible" for Citroen Hydraulics.
No worries
A 5 second tick and the STOP light going out almost straight away is a sure sign the accumulator and indeed all the other spheres are on their last legs.Get the accumulator replaced as soon as possible as a "flat" one imposes a severe strain on the pressure regulator and may lead to damage to the pressure regulator.
I'd be tempted to replace all of your spheres before your trip. There are plenty of wise words on here for doing the job. The first requirement is a good sphere removal tool. A normal strap wrench just won't be up to the job. It may just do the front suspension spheres but it'll struggle with the accumulator due to it's somewhat difficult location. The rears are the most difficult.
I've just noticed you have an Exclusive. That'll have Hydractive suspension. You will have a suspension switch on your dash to select between normal and enthusiastic modes with a symbol on the switch that looks a bit like a spring. You have more spheres on an Exclusinve too and one is a little hard to get at for replacement.
There are a few other tests to undertake on a Hydractive system and will explain why yours felt firm rather than very soft. Basically, Hydractive suspension has two modes, hard and soft. The default mode is hard when the car has been switched off and all doors closed for 30s. The suspension switches to soft mode when a door is opened. the suspension stays in soft mode when dribing except under heavy cornering, hard braking and hard acceleration. The switch selects one of two thresholds for when hard mode kicks in.
Test hydractive like this: Start up and let the system get to pressure and switch off. Shut all doors and then bounce the rear whilst listening for a faint hum under the car. Bounce the rear. The rear should feel very soft for 30s. You should then hear a distinct click and the suspension should go very firm as hard mode switches in. Start up for a bit, let pressure rise again, switch off and do the same test at the front.
Mind you, with a flat accumulator, this test may not work.
The Hydractive system has a very common fault with its controlling electrovalves (the electrovalves are what you can hear humming and clicking - they select hard and soft modes by switching in an out the centre Hydractive spheres. basically a diode encapsulated in the electrovalve coil goes open-circuit and they fail to switch.
Have a look at this link Nobby. It's for an Activa but these are the same in the Hydractive department, just ignore the Activa-specific bits!
The thread contains a good bit on electrovalves and how they fail. More importantly, it tells you how you can cheaply repair them
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=23312
You'll find within that thread a link to the Citroen Technical Guide. This is an excellent "bible" for Citroen Hydraulics.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
Brilliant again thanks Jim!
I went to Citronics in Harpenden (I saw mentioned on another post) who was a very nice guy and quoted me £275 to replace the accumulator sphere, the other 6 spheres, clean the filters and replace the LHM fluid.
I had already bought an accumulator sphere, and decided to have a go at the job myself. I decided against using the chain wrench, it didn't look strong enough, gave the sphere a few knocks with hammer and cold chisel and job done in 20 mins!
I did your weight test (rising and lowering) and all was OK. I decided to head back to GSF and do the front 3 spheres (only 2/3 of the back ones were in stock ... I'll finish the job next weekend!) which was much easier than the accumulator. Took me about 20 mins to do the three, so feeling happy here! (Buy you a pint anytime you're passing through!)
I found the wires on top of the LHM reservoir disconnected ...so re-connected these, and topped up fluid, but still no stop light? Orange coolie hat seems wedged at the top of the sight glass and didn't fall even without fluid after changing the spheres?
The car already seems to be handling better and the ride is improved. I'm going to order the 3 rear spheres and do those next weekend, and then see what it all looks like! Thanks again for the help.
I went to Citronics in Harpenden (I saw mentioned on another post) who was a very nice guy and quoted me £275 to replace the accumulator sphere, the other 6 spheres, clean the filters and replace the LHM fluid.
I had already bought an accumulator sphere, and decided to have a go at the job myself. I decided against using the chain wrench, it didn't look strong enough, gave the sphere a few knocks with hammer and cold chisel and job done in 20 mins!
I did your weight test (rising and lowering) and all was OK. I decided to head back to GSF and do the front 3 spheres (only 2/3 of the back ones were in stock ... I'll finish the job next weekend!) which was much easier than the accumulator. Took me about 20 mins to do the three, so feeling happy here! (Buy you a pint anytime you're passing through!)
I found the wires on top of the LHM reservoir disconnected ...so re-connected these, and topped up fluid, but still no stop light? Orange coolie hat seems wedged at the top of the sight glass and didn't fall even without fluid after changing the spheres?
The car already seems to be handling better and the ride is improved. I'm going to order the 3 rear spheres and do those next weekend, and then see what it all looks like! Thanks again for the help.
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 49658
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- Location: Paggers
- My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
- x 6204
- Contact:
Hi Nobby,
That is brilliant news When you come to it, you'll find the rear spheres a bit tricker in that they must be "cracked" (initially loosened) with the system under pressure and on high suspension setting. If you try to remove the spheres in any other way, the suspension cylinder will rotate and damage the hydraulic pipes to it.
This post tells you how to do it:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... ar+spheres
Please be aware that the car needs to be VERY FIRMLY AND SECURELY SUPPORTED when doing this. If for any reason the system rapidly depressurises, the car can will fall very quickly and if not adequately supported, it could crush and kill you. Please take great care. A good rule is you NEVER venture under a hydraulic Citroen unless it is adequately supported. people have been killed and badly injurerd from not following this advice.
Sorry to sound like an old nagging nanny but this is one piece of Health and Safety to be taken seriously
That is brilliant news
When you come to it, you'll find the rear spheres a bit tricker in that they must be "cracked" (initially loosened) with the system under pressure and on high suspension setting. If you try to remove the spheres in any other way, the suspension cylinder will rotate and damage the hydraulic pipes to it.This post tells you how to do it:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... ar+spheres
Please be aware that the car needs to be VERY FIRMLY AND SECURELY SUPPORTED when doing this. If for any reason the system rapidly depressurises, the car can will fall very quickly and if not adequately supported, it could crush and kill you. Please take great care. A good rule is you NEVER venture under a hydraulic Citroen unless it is adequately supported. people have been killed and badly injurerd from not following this advice.
Sorry to sound like an old nagging nanny but this is one piece of Health and Safety to be taken seriously
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
-
myglaren
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 25480
- Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
- Location: Washington
- My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX - x 4922
I'll second that - I almost lost an arm to my GS - I was completely new to hydraulic suspension at the time, replaced a rear disc and some pipework around the caliper and height corrector. When I tried to bleed it nothing happened until I lifted the suspension arm, which suddenly started moving down again and came within seconds of trapping my arm between it and the support. Never moved so quick before or since and always treat the cars with maximum caution and respect these days.citrojim wrote:Hi Nobby,
Please be aware that the car needs to be VERY FIRMLY AND SECURELY SUPPORTED when doing this. If for any reason the system rapidly depressurises, the car can will fall very quickly and if not adequately supported, it could crush and kill you. Please take great care. A good rule is you NEVER venture under a hydraulic Citroen unless it is adequately supported. people have been killed and badly injurerd from not following this advice.
Sorry to sound like an old nagging nanny but this is one piece of Health and Safety to be taken seriously
Wish I'd been more carefull at work too, chopped a finger and a half of with a circular saw a month ago, didn't see that one coming in time.
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
4 spheres at the rear!!!
Hi everyone and thanks so much for all the advice! (So sorry to hear of the accidents myglaren) I'll go carefully.
I finally got the rear 3 spheres from GSF (closed early last Saturday ... then sold one of them ...had to re-order etc etc) and I just got the car on the ramp and its got 4 spheres at the rear!!!
No time to order the missing sphere as I leave for the Alps Sunday! So I'm going to fit what I have ..question is what do I have!?
The new "middle" sphere from GSF is N45364-SP860. My question is do I swap for the old 'upper' rear sphere (has AX printed on it and 133 stamped on it) or the old 'lower' sphere FA printed on it and H92 stamped on it)?
Neither seems to have pipes connected direct to the sphere.
I'm doing the job now!!!
Thanks for any help offered.
I finally got the rear 3 spheres from GSF (closed early last Saturday ... then sold one of them ...had to re-order etc etc) and I just got the car on the ramp and its got 4 spheres at the rear!!!
No time to order the missing sphere as I leave for the Alps Sunday! So I'm going to fit what I have ..question is what do I have!?
The new "middle" sphere from GSF is N45364-SP860. My question is do I swap for the old 'upper' rear sphere (has AX printed on it and 133 stamped on it) or the old 'lower' sphere FA printed on it and H92 stamped on it)?
Neither seems to have pipes connected direct to the sphere.
I'm doing the job now!!!
Thanks for any help offered.
You really have to watch what you're changing on your car as it's an
Exclusive which has the hydractive set up with the additional centre
sphere at either end; the one on the front will sit just to the nearside
front crossmember beneath the radiator. These centre spheres WILL
make a significant difference to the ride quality BUT YOU NEED THE
CORRECT REPLACEMENTS!!
The N45364 one you have from GSF ISN'T RIGHT at all being a
fitment for:
XANTIA 1.6-1.9D NON HYDRACTIVE
Andrew
Exclusive which has the hydractive set up with the additional centre
sphere at either end; the one on the front will sit just to the nearside
front crossmember beneath the radiator. These centre spheres WILL
make a significant difference to the ride quality BUT YOU NEED THE
CORRECT REPLACEMENTS!!
The N45364 one you have from GSF ISN'T RIGHT at all being a
fitment for:
XANTIA 1.6-1.9D NON HYDRACTIVE
Andrew
Can you be 100% certain that the spheres replaced on the front, especially
the two corner spheres, are correct for the hydractive system on the Exclusive?
Their jetting (port for fluid entry into the sphere) and their pressure will be
different to other Xantia models. You may actually have it far too wallowy
as the jet will be too large for the Exclusive set up; the additional central
sphere may not in fact be showing up an incorrect fitment as that sphere
could be flat.
Change the extra middle front one as well and the car may in fact have too
much permitted movement with a less controlled ride. This is the whole
essence of the Exclusive/hydractive set up as it can switch between firmer
damping and soft travel according to the way the car is being driven.
With the corner spheres too soft it effectively isn't running correctly as
Citroen intended, negating the point of the unique hydractive system!!
Andrew
the two corner spheres, are correct for the hydractive system on the Exclusive?
Their jetting (port for fluid entry into the sphere) and their pressure will be
different to other Xantia models. You may actually have it far too wallowy
as the jet will be too large for the Exclusive set up; the additional central
sphere may not in fact be showing up an incorrect fitment as that sphere
could be flat.
Change the extra middle front one as well and the car may in fact have too
much permitted movement with a less controlled ride. This is the whole
essence of the Exclusive/hydractive set up as it can switch between firmer
damping and soft travel according to the way the car is being driven.
With the corner spheres too soft it effectively isn't running correctly as
Citroen intended, negating the point of the unique hydractive system!!
Andrew
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
Thanks for that Andrew.
Yes its a 1999 Xantia Exclusive Petrol Estate (but not off Ebay). Jim explained above it was hydractive and I told them that at GSF when I ordered and took the car along. They have given me 2 x N45368 for the rears which is also wrong from what you say?
They gave me 2 x N45334 for the front and 1 x N45322 for the front middle and I've already fitted these.
I've removed the rear spheres and drained the system
I've also noticed that the front tyres are wearing very rapidly at the outside rims (normally I'd put that down to tracking but it looks like it may be connected?)
The shops are obviously closed today and I'm thinking my chances of getting the right parts and fitting them in time to leave for France Sunday morning are getting slim! If anyone has any ideas I'm in need of some advice on what to do please.
Starting to panic here ...
Yes its a 1999 Xantia Exclusive Petrol Estate (but not off Ebay). Jim explained above it was hydractive and I told them that at GSF when I ordered and took the car along. They have given me 2 x N45368 for the rears which is also wrong from what you say?
They gave me 2 x N45334 for the front and 1 x N45322 for the front middle and I've already fitted these.
I've removed the rear spheres and drained the system
I've also noticed that the front tyres are wearing very rapidly at the outside rims (normally I'd put that down to tracking but it looks like it may be connected?)
The shops are obviously closed today and I'm thinking my chances of getting the right parts and fitting them in time to leave for France Sunday morning are getting slim! If anyone has any ideas I'm in need of some advice on what to do please.
Starting to panic here ...
nobbytucker wrote:They have given me 2 x N45368 for the rears which is also wrong from what you say?
They gave me 2 x N45334 for the front and 1 x N45322 for the front middle and I've already fitted these.
I've removed the rear spheres and drained the system
The two you have for the rear are:
N45368 SPHERE-REAR XANTIA 2.0 8V;16V;1.9TD HATCH HYDRACTIVE
so are saloon fitment! These a a different pressure and jet to those on
the estate and I wouldn't risk using them at all. You'd be better refitting
the original spheres that were on the car before you started work on it
this morning! Least you know they come off the car; half the battle won!
Andrew
-
nobbytucker
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 21:59
- Location: Hertfordshire, UK
- My Cars:
Good idea - I've done that.
It'll keep the dirt and snow out until I can work out what to do tomorrow.
I did rather set about the spheres with a cold chisel and hammer to get them off. Is that anything that should concern me if I cant get the proper parts from GSF in time for my trip?
Thanks for all the help, I really am very appreciative of the helpful posts
It'll keep the dirt and snow out until I can work out what to do tomorrow.
I did rather set about the spheres with a cold chisel and hammer to get them off. Is that anything that should concern me if I cant get the proper parts from GSF in time for my trip?
Thanks for all the help, I really am very appreciative of the helpful posts