Aargh! TU5JP4 engine recon

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 28 Feb 2008, 10:57

The dear Bling blew it's head gasket just before new year - a week after having the clutch changed!!! Now at 184k I wouldn't mind but it's getting a real pain...

HELP!!

1. I cannot get the old water pump out. Its rear is cylindrical and stepped so I guess it's a tight fit. But it's solid. Presumably furred in with the stuff that sods up Citroen's rear brake disks - muck ali to metal electrolysis. In trying to prise some movement, most of the outer lip has broken off. I have bodged a puller to pull on the cam belt cog using the car’s body but have been unable to draw the pump out. It still won’t budge!

2. The inlet valves weren't seating properly (outer half - or less - of seat width) and they were very stressed around the head stem so I have brought new ones. Trying to seat these is showing up something I haven't seen before. There is a marked angle difference between the top part of the seat (that was mated to the old valves) and the bottom part (that looks as if it has never mated with the old valves). I have ground in two (of eight!) valves so far. Each one has taken ages with course paste and the result is a non-straight seat that has ground the valve and the seat in a shoddy attempt to get the two matched.

Questions:
Q1. Any good ideas on how to remove the water pump?
Q2. What should I do with the valve seats? Have them professionally reshaped or continue to grind them in by hand?
Q3. Is there a quicker way to grind the valves in – I’m using a standard hand suction stick and swearing a lot!

Oh, and a final question: why do we like Citroens?

Dave

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 29 Feb 2008, 19:16

I gave up grinding valves years ago as all I could get was rings and lumpy seats - and found many garages would cut the seats with a proper cutter for little money. If you're lucky you will find someone with a valve re-facing grinder as well but they may not advise using one these days as it tended to produce a very sharp edge on the valve which could be prone to burning.

You may find a local engine reconditioner in yellow pages. They'll probably grind them for you and re-shim them as well - which will save you endless trips to a dealer to get the right shims.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 29 Feb 2008, 23:50

or if we re talking TUD5 diesel engine you could always buy the brand new engine i have for sale, never been fitted, on the pallet it came from the factory on, citroen peugeot price was around £3,000, im not after anywhere near that for it
regards malcolm

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 05 Mar 2008, 09:06

Cheers Jeremy, I ended up gringing them by hand. Malcolm, thanks but it's the 1.6 16v petrol.

I thought I needed help then, but I really do now!

I've got the engine back together, checked the cam valve timing twice.

It runs better than before but still has the same problem!

It starts well. Idles steadily but lumpy, but without obvious misfire. Gets hot really quickly - mid dial in a couple of minutes from cold in the cold. Off of cold start it idles fast and still lumpy. The thermostat opens after a couple of minutes and the rad gets uniformly hot quickly. Within another minute or so the manifold is glowing red hot. If you try to leave it until the fan comes on it's already boiling coolant in the engine.

I've run her three times now since rebuild and the last run looks to have warped the head and blown engine oil out of the gasket. DOH!

As I have said, I checked the timing, flywheel and both cams lock in the right place and there is only one TDC hole in the flywheel.

It's all fly-by-wire. Everythings electronic and the timing and idle speed is all electronically controlled. I'm wondering if a sensor is duff and it's either wrongly timing itself or over fueling - but how do I check?

Please, has anyone any ideas?

Desperate Dave

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 05 Mar 2008, 19:18

its not the coil pack is it, i have just fitted a new one the a customers SAXO VTR
regards malcolm

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 10 Mar 2008, 09:59

Malcolm, I haven't a clue what it is. My first thought is that it's firing way out of time - I know the engine is mechanically timed ok as I rechecked everything as I refitted the cam belt. By the coil pack - do you mean the electronic slab that fits on top of the plugs, between the two cam housings? Is there an easy way for a non teche to test this?

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 10 Mar 2008, 16:59

you might be able to buy 4 flasher caps from motor factors, not a lot of dosh, fit all 4 to the spark plugs and fit your coil pack to the tops of all 4 flashers (flshers are a plastic plug cap with a spark gap sealed inside the plastic body) which are transparent yellow, doing this you might determin if you have any plugs not fireing
regards malcolm

ps.
or maybe you have damaged your TDC sensor

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 Mar 2008, 20:58

Any visible timing marks on the flywheel - or any other beltwheel etc - on that TU5 1,6 16V ??

If not - then make yourself one - either place it can be done visible - then check the dynamic timing the usual way with a strobolight.
I have a feeling that despite all your efforts the engine timing is still out - close to way out - as this is the only thing explaining the glowing red hot manifold during a short run.

On later XU engine types its VERY common for the drivebelt wheel (the damper) to fail in the vulcanisation - making the crank timing hole a sheer lottery to use. Check if that is a possible issue on your TU engine as well.

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 11 Mar 2008, 15:46

That's a good idea Malcolm. As far as I can tell all plugs seem to be firing ok. When running it doesn't have the sound of misfires. In fact, started from cold you'd never know anything is wrong.

Anders: The static timing is done by a single flywheel hole and a bolt in each cam sprocket (similar to diesel timing). A seperating crank pulley should have no effect on the timing.

As for strobe timing (those were the days) it's something I've been wondering about. Unless there is something drastically wrong with the block, the problem seems to me to be a timing issue. There is no way to get a 'normal' strobe light on a plug with the electronic gubbins on top - but I may be able to run a wire from the plug under the electronic unit. Or are the four wires going into the unit the spark signal? I don't know enough of how it all works.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 11 Mar 2008, 18:09

Static mechanical timing must be right then.

Any chance the ignition wiring possibly is/can be swapped ?
Have the cam axles been out and possibly swapped ?

Either the engine has severe powerloss due to a timing issue.
Or the exhaust is partially blocked making the engine struggle to keep itself running.

I have seen older cars running red hot because of steady lean running. But that is not likely to happen on a modern computer controlled engine.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 11 Mar 2008, 18:19

davek-uk wrote:It's all fly-by-wire. Everythings electronic and the timing and idle speed is all electronically controlled. I'm wondering if a sensor is duff and it's either wrongly timing itself or over fueling - but how do I check?

Please, has anyone any ideas?

Are you able to read the plugs? They might give a clue.

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 12 Mar 2008, 09:05

Thanks for your comments guys.

Anders, the ignition wiring is a coffin shaped slab of electronics (all sealed) and it fits over all the plugs between the two cam housings. Four standard sized wires feed it in a multiplug. So it could be duff or it could be ok! I have had the camshafts out but I'm sure they went back ok. If they were swapped I would have thought I'd have hit a valve during running. In fact I've done a cold compression test and all appears to be within reasonable limits.

The plugs as I remember were pretty clean in 2 and 3 cylinders and a bit blacker (oily) in 1 and 4. I'll have to recheck but I didn't see anything drastically wrong.

As I believe the electronics adjust the timing and the mixture, anything could be wrong if a sensor is duff or the computer is fried.

Tonight I’m going to static time, mark TDC and try to get a wire under the electronics for plug no 1 – to see if it will light a strobe. At the same time I’ll put a meter on the TDC sensor in the bellhousing and see what sort of reading this gives.

Or, of course, I may have a problem with the block. Although it’s iron (?) I guess it may be possible to have a crack in the cylinder wall so that the ignited gasses leak into the coolant on the down stroke. Has anyone known of a problem like this on a non-liner iron block?

I’d scrap the thing but I’ve just paid £300 for a new clutch and nearly £200 doing the head, valves, gaskets & seals, cam belt etc. Before it went duff, even at 184k miles, it was quiet, smooth and fairly powerful. DOH!

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 12 Mar 2008, 18:44

HINT :
Any cheapskate modern mini-LED battery torch very easily transforms into a "strobo".
These modern LEDs have enough light power to reliably lit a timing mark.
The advantage is that you can drive the LED(s) directly off the low tension side signal of the ignition coilpack plug.
The LED's are very bright at their standard 20mA drive current, and can be pulse driven with quite a bit more power - using the required suitable series drop resistor.
Simply connect the PLUS side of the LED(s) to any 12V source (remember the series drop resistor !) - then connect the MINUS side of the LED(s) to the breaker signal at the coil low tension plug.

Now you have your modern LED "strobo"

juraj · Post by **juraj** » 13 Mar 2008, 01:38

anders

thats a great idea with the led torch as a strobe!!! i love it!

ps what sort of resistor value do oyu recommend?

bye

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 13 Mar 2008, 13:35

how can this led strobe proove wheater you have or not got HT at the plug side of the coil pack, if you are only getting your pick up from the low tention feed wires

regards malcolm