Desperate ! (was White smoke on starting)

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David.Cox
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Desperate ! (was White smoke on starting)

Post by David.Cox »

To remind; BX 17 DTR
Sorry to start a new string but I am going mental with this car.
last post under old string from Jeremy was useful; the pdf document was good general theory but has not helped wtih my present problem.
To recap; my garage has had the original lucas pump rebuilt by Lucas. They have now installed it, but although slow running is smooth, and it appears there is no longer any engine runaway, the damn thing kicks out white smoke as soon as you start driving at any moderate speed.
The trouble is that this is getting increasingly expensive. The garage thinks they should do the turbo, but one post suggested that head gasket might be a problem. Yet another post on a different, but related string talked about low engine ( worn engine) compression causing the problem. Before the work on the pump was done the engine performed fine, and there was no problem (apparently) with the turbo.
The pump had shown problems with over running some four months back, but the problem seemed to stop. Then one day, after good running it suddenly errupted in white smoke. I changed the glow plugs, which gave sufficient minimal improvement to enable me to drive it to the garage.
So my problem is that having run up a rather large bill, I do not want the next phase of expense to be a fools errand. I am worried that the garage is perhaps doing something very simple that is wrong and causing this problem. So I need to be sure what direction to suggest the garage in going. I am considering asking them to refer to a local fule injection speclialist.
Any ideas of what the likely scenarios would be would be most helpful, as soon as possible, as I need to instruct the garage what to do next by Monday.
David W
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Post by David W »

David,
I'm new to your problem...it's a pig when they cost loads and appear to go round in circles like this.
First the harsh reality. Surely a proper Lucas exchange pump has already cost more than the value of most BXs...is this car so good that it's worth investing?? I mean you could get a BX with a decent running engine but MOT failed for £50 and swap the engine over.
Anyway to the smoke. Assuming this isn't steam* from a head gasket the things that cause white smoke are...
Normal on starting and when cold.
Can be worse if glowplugs not A1.
Pump timing out**.
Air ingress.
Pump fuelling problem.
Why not pop down the local MOT station and get them to do a smoke test? An actual measurement would be interesting.
* You are absolutely sure there is no head or gasket problem??
** I am no expert on the real tech area of diesel pump design but understand air ingress, as well as causing poor starting, can affect the way the fuel is delivered from the pump and effectively cause late timing. Also that problems in the pump with the part that pumps fuel and produces the pressure can give this late timing effect.
You say the car runs smoothly at idle. Actually something that will make a diesel run "too" smoothly is retarded pump timing which may also give this grey smoke.
I am really worried your guys have let you spend all this money on the pump and now happily say we'll do the turbo, it must be that. Seems a bit random to me.
Hope there is something to help in there, diesel guys please argue if you think I've got any of it wrong!
David
David.Cox
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Post by David.Cox »

David
Thanks for the posting. The trouble with this situation is that other money was spent on the car, before we got to the pump situation. Thus I was committed , and just scrapping would have meant throwing money down the drain. Bodyshell is good and I always worked on the basis that even if it cost more than buying another car, I was better off with the devil I knew, which had most of its hydraulics replaced etc.
Anyway, I am thinking that the blown head gasket is a likely possibility, given that all this happened so suddenly. I knew months ago that I was going to have the face the issue of the pump, but for months in between the engine has run sweeetly. It was for this reason I felt it alright to persevere.
In any event your posting has given food for thought, and any comments from others would help.
David
Daffy
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Post by Daffy »

M8,
I had a BX 1.9 diesel (XUD 9). Suddenly struck with CLOUDS of smoke/steam. Spent the whole weekend and £30 to replace head gasket, started her up and NOOOOOO difference. Chucked a bottle of H**fords block-weld in the rad and bingo,,, cured...cracked block. Promptly traded the bitch at a dealers for a ZX. Was I glad to see the back of it. I too had thrown (wasted) good money on hydraulics. Get rid and cut yer losses - You know it makes sense!!
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Post by RichardW »

I agree with David W. It sounds very unlikely to be the turbo, and a water leak is much more likely. Is there still pressure in the cooling system when the engine's cold? Is there signs of water in the oil (mayonnaise) or oil in the water (rainbow in the expansion tank)? Are there bubbles coming up into the expansion tank when the engine is revved? Is it loosing water?
If you suspect the head gasket DO NOT DRIVE IT!!! A 'simple' gasket job is not too bad. If you crack the head, then it gets a whole lot more expensive! With the head off, given your symptoms, I would have the head pressure tested and skimmed. Note that the time to do a head gasket on a BX TD (it's a fairly nasty job!) is probably not all that much different to changing the engine, so if you could get a known good one from a rough car, change it out with your re-con pump, new timing belt and clutch, you'd be onto a winner.
Bad luck about the expense....cars always do that to you...!
Richard
DLM
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Post by DLM »

Hmmm..... knowing when to stop or change direction is always much more difficult on the financial/technical aspects of cars than the driving bit itself....
Garages can get caught too - I know of a local specialist with 2 TZD turbo estates on which they spent a lot of time refettling in the engine and turbo department, after other garages with less expertise and experience wrote them off as unrepairable. From what I remember & have been told, both were classic cases of new hydraulics, thousands spent previously, "too good to scrap". One sold to an enthusiast quickly, and the other is sitting waiting to be sold some months later with overhauled engine/turbo - and even rabid BXers such as I baulk at the price needed to justify the man-hours they've spent.
Known-good turbodiesel BXs and engines seem to be in short supply.
Perhaps there might be a case here for a transplant from a younger ZX or Xantia to produce a real live version of the mythical BX 1.9 turbodiesel, assuming a known-good 1.9TD engine isn't also in short supply or too expensive.
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

First off I would expect a car producing a noticable cloud of steam from a water leak to run out of water after a very short distance, and you don't say you are having to add water.
Secondly I don't think enough water could even get in to the cylinders to produce any such cloud of steam, and still run relatively smoothly at any speed.
Is there any missfiring or uneven running, and or, any loss of power/acceleration as the smoke appears, does it cold and hot start easey.
My thoughts are that it is air ingress, the faster the engine goes the more air would be pulled in, this would also as DJW says put back the start of injection, because the advancing pistons in the pump will have to compress any air to nothing before injection can begin, it would also reduce the amount of fuel injected due to some of the volume in the high pressure stage being taken up by air instead of fuel.
If this is the case it will also do it while you rev the engine with the car stationary, so fit some clear tube suitable for diesel between the filter and the pump, this will instantly show if there is air present in the fuel.
I can't see any reason why a turbo fault should produce white smoke, if the turbo or wastegate are preventing boost pressure build up, the pump simply wont inject a boost quantity of fuel.
To test for possible head gasket failure between cylinder and cooling system, fill the rad on the stone cold engine and replace the cap, then start the engine and wait 10 to 15 seconds and remove the cap, if there is a surge of water from the rad, or an escape of pressure, then the head gasket may have failed as this pressure can only have come from escaped combustion gasses.
As mentioned above, though uncommon, a cracked block/head cylinder to water jacket will also show same symptoms.
Dave
alan s
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Post by alan s »

It's many years since I struck this, but, what are the symptoms shown by a wet sleeve motor that has had seals on the base of the liners fail or are beginning to fail?
As these are basically a very thin "O" ring in reality, is it possible that a failure in these could allow the head gasket to leak ever so slightly and the enormous vacuum of the downstroke draw a few molecules of water into the cylinder which then mixed with the fuel is actually igniting? The friction & pressure of the upstroke forcing the gasket to reseal enough to not show any abnormal symptoms?
I know this is starting to sound sci-fi kinda logic, but weird symptoms are often based on weird causes. Added to this, could the running on then in fact be caused by the steam powering the engine? If the running on was more along the lines of being similar to a petrol engine with pre-ignition run on rather than a diesel running away then could this be due to the fact that the steam would be very limited & would not ignite as diesel would?
Migh be a stupid suggestion & could be way off the mark, but is it worth at least considering......or should I go & get my dunces cap & sit in the corner? <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alan S <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

Hope its not too dark for you in that corner Alan, hehe.
These diesels don't have sleeves, liners in the uk, though there are both wet and dry lined diesels around, this isn't one of 'em, cylinder bores are machined directly into the block.
Also being a diesel there isn't an enormous downstroke vacuum, infact there is hardly any because the intake isn't throttled, plus when the turbo gets going there is positive pressure anyway, so just the oposit realy.
Beam me up Scotty <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Dave
alan s
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Post by alan s »

Dave,
Which rolls up the better for the cap?
Newspaper or cardboard??
Gotta admit though......It WAS different!!
Alan S <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

David
I'm sorry to hear that your problems continue and broadly speaking are the same as before. White smoke is not that common, our usual problem being black smoke being badly combusted fuel.
Firstly let me deal with the turbo. unless an internal seal has gone allowing lubricating oil to leak into the exhaust I'm sure it will not cause the problems you are experiencing. If lubricating oil is leaking it has to come from somewhere so I would expect your oil level to drop and i think it would burn blue grey and only when you accelerate hard and the exhaust became hot enough. Extra fuel is needed when the turbo is running and thus is provided by an extra fuel device screwed on the side of the pump. You can recognise this as a thin rubber pipe connects this to the front of the intercooler. Pull this pipe off and the car will feel like a low powered 1.7 running in a gear too high - (ie feeble)- which is exactly what it is. This will however serve as a simple test as to whether the turbo fuel supply is a problem.
White smoke and smooth quiet idling suggests timing to me and I would guess that if there is a fault the timing is retarded. How did your garage time the pump? did they use a dial gauge, have they got one and the necessary adaptors and brackets? (see posting on this board on subject). As an indication most dial gauges are used with a magnetic stant. Now look at your engine and say to yourself 'Where would I put the stand - its all aluminium! - see the problem! - I've been contemplating checking my timing for 3 years now and know I will have to make a metal bracket to bolt on somewhere and a suitable clamp to hold the gauge, which needs to be held very rigidly to function accurately.
In your position I would adjust the timing manually, advancing it a boit at a time and obseving. If it knocks really loudly you have gone a bit too far. I think to move the pump you simply slacken the mounting bolts and gently tap it round.
Finally - a longshot Is the induction system clean - Is the intercooler blocked? - Might be worth taking it off and starting the engine and seeing if it is any different. I think this would produce black smoke if blocked.
As a matter of interest the only time I get white smoke out of my TD is if it doesn't start first time (because I haven't heated it properly) or a couple of barely noticeable puffs when it misfires slightly after starting which I think is very minor air ingress into the fuel system.
Jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

David
I'm sorry to hear that your problems continue and broadly speaking are the same as before. White smoke is not that common, our usual problem being black smoke being badly combusted fuel.
Firstly let me deal with the turbo. unless an internal seal has gone allowing lubricating oil to leak into the exhaust I'm sure it will not cause the problems you are experiencing. If lubricating oil is leaking it has to come from somewhere so I would expect your oil level to drop and i think it would burn blue grey and only when you accelerate hard and the exhaust became hot enough. Extra fuel is needed when the turbo is running and thus is provided by an extra fuel device screwed on the side of the pump. You can recognise this as a thin rubber pipe connects this to the front of the intercooler. Pull this pipe off and the car will feel like a low powered 1.7 running in a gear too high - (ie feeble)- which is exactly what it is. This will however serve as a simple test as to whether the turbo fuel supply is a problem.
White smoke and smooth quiet idling suggests timing to me and I would guess that if there is a fault the timing is retarded. How did your garage time the pump? did they use a dial gauge, have they got one and the necessary adaptors and brackets? (see posting on this board on subject). As an indication most dial gauges are used with a magnetic stant. Now look at your engine and say to yourself 'Where would I put the stand - its all aluminium! - see the problem! - I've been contemplating checking my timing for 3 years now and know I will have to make a metal bracket to bolt on somewhere and a suitable clamp to hold the gauge, which needs to be held very rigidly to function accurately.
In your position I would adjust the timing manually, advancing it a boit at a time and obseving. If it knocks really loudly you have gone a bit too far. I think to move the pump you simply slacken the mounting bolts and gently tap it round.
Finally - a longshot Is the induction system clean - Is the intercooler blocked? - Might be worth taking it off and starting the engine and seeing if it is any different. I think this would produce black smoke if blocked.
As a matter of interest the only time I get white smoke out of my TD is if it doesn't start first time (because I haven't heated it properly) or a couple of barely noticeable puffs when it misfires slightly after starting which I think is very minor air ingress into the fuel system.
Jeremy
David.Cox
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Post by David.Cox »

Thanks for the replies from everybody. It has been useful in helping me make decisions. I have now been down to my garage and had full discussions with them, and I think we are reaching resolution. This is fortuantely not just a little local garage, but one that prides itself on good engineering work. They have a good record of restoring some interesting stuff.
The think that the way the car behaved, and the colour of the smoke produced, all indicate engine oil feeing the turbo, given that the smoke had a blue tinge to it. The car had literraly been driven on the level, at a gentle level, and it was not until they put a bit of power on that anything happened.
Within a few days we are going to know where we are, and I will post a report as to how things hae gone. Basically the plan now is to take off the head and the turbo, overhaul turbo, replace head gasket and inspect; while we are in there we can do anything that needs doing for comparqatively little extra.
The economics is such that I was locked in becauase the expense was incurred before we reached the real problem. I either had to throw away the car, and the money spent already, or keep going. There really wa no alternative, and in any case I am too emotionally attahced to my baby to get rid of it.
Once again thanks to all.
David
Doc
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Post by Doc »

Hi David,
If you do go ahead and have your turbo rebuilt make sure it is done by a reputable company specialising in turbos. They are not devices to be taken lightly. You may want to ask your garage who is going to rebuild the unit as it takes complex processes to balance a precision device that can spin at up to 100,000 revs per minute and run at temperatures approaching 700 degrees centigrade!
Was the white smoke condensation from a cold engine or diesel vapour that had not reached combustion temperature? It may be just a glowplug/control relay problem.
Are there any signs of gasket failure (for example oil droplets in coolant, water drops on oil dipstick and pressurization of the coolant circuit, mayonaise under oil filler cap/breather pipes?
If not then be careful that your local garage doesn't carry out unecessary work.
I can't remember if the turbo unit is water cooled but if it is then it is feasible that coolant is being sucked/blown in through a faulty casting and/or seals.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Doc
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