Have an N reg AX Elation 1.5 NA Diesel.
Went for a compression test (based on BAD starting and every other option being doing), came out at 320,320,320,300 shout be around 420.
Assuming that it needs new rings and gasket, how impossible is it to do? What things need to be done? Anyone point me in the direction of a step by step? Bear in mind that i have never taken the head of an engine, but that it needs to be done within the next two weeks.
So far we've been quoted £790 for the lot, is this a good price?
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
AX 1.5d Head job?
Moderator: RichardW
-
RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
- Posts: 10891
- Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 1003
Vanny,
What units are those numbers in? If it's psi, then 320 would seem about right (18bar), whereas 420 (29 bar) seems way too high - I'd expect about 18 bar for a N/A diesel - 18:1 CR seems not too far off. Could be DCTU though (Dodgy Compression Test Units).....
Head off will involve the usual - new bolts / probably new timing belt. You can usually take out the pistons by taking the sump off and pushing them out the top of the engine (Stefan has just done this on his BX to fit new rings). However, I think the 1.5D engine is alloy block / wet liners in which case it would probably not be advisable to try this! If you really think it's necessary it's probably going to be best to drop the engine (literally, as I think AX engines have to come out the bottom!), strip it totally, fit whatever is required, plus the benfit of a new clutch, and working on the bench rather than struggling under the less than massive proportions of an AX engine bay.
Can't be any worse than the clutch change on your BX. Can it????
Richard
What units are those numbers in? If it's psi, then 320 would seem about right (18bar), whereas 420 (29 bar) seems way too high - I'd expect about 18 bar for a N/A diesel - 18:1 CR seems not too far off. Could be DCTU though (Dodgy Compression Test Units).....
Head off will involve the usual - new bolts / probably new timing belt. You can usually take out the pistons by taking the sump off and pushing them out the top of the engine (Stefan has just done this on his BX to fit new rings). However, I think the 1.5D engine is alloy block / wet liners in which case it would probably not be advisable to try this! If you really think it's necessary it's probably going to be best to drop the engine (literally, as I think AX engines have to come out the bottom!), strip it totally, fit whatever is required, plus the benfit of a new clutch, and working on the bench rather than struggling under the less than massive proportions of an AX engine bay.
Can't be any worse than the clutch change on your BX. Can it????
Richard
Vanny,
Don't rush into this without thinking.
I don't have figures to hand for the smaller diesel engine but the BX diesel is given a normal compression reading of 360 to 430psi with 270 as an absolute minimum. The difference between cylinders should ideally be less than 50psi.
Assuming the AX spec is similar yours isn't too bad. Add in any error in the compression tester* and your engine might be acceptable if not perfect.
As an example I bought a "bargain" new diesel tester last year for about £125. Turned out it leaked pressure and the readings were useless. Returned it to get a well trusted brand for over £200...much better.
Then what about the cost of the job. You are talking about almost the whole trade value of the car for just rings and a head gasket?? Also it's about 70% of the cost of a complete rebuilt engine and twice the cost of a decent used unit to swap straight in.
David
Don't rush into this without thinking.
I don't have figures to hand for the smaller diesel engine but the BX diesel is given a normal compression reading of 360 to 430psi with 270 as an absolute minimum. The difference between cylinders should ideally be less than 50psi.
Assuming the AX spec is similar yours isn't too bad. Add in any error in the compression tester* and your engine might be acceptable if not perfect.
As an example I bought a "bargain" new diesel tester last year for about £125. Turned out it leaked pressure and the readings were useless. Returned it to get a well trusted brand for over £200...much better.
Then what about the cost of the job. You are talking about almost the whole trade value of the car for just rings and a head gasket?? Also it's about 70% of the cost of a complete rebuilt engine and twice the cost of a decent used unit to swap straight in.
David
Yes these where given in PSi.
The garage i used come highly reccomended from various people locally (inclusive of other local garages), they only do engines so im hoping that the tester would be fairly accurate. Personally im thinking this is far too expensive for a head and rings job, but then its quoted (in that mysterious book mechanics have) as being an 11hr job. The guy reckons it wont take more than 8. Having had a quick flick through the not so useful Haynes it seems like it will take me a lot longer to do, and the car really needs to be going within the next week or so.
IF its not the rings, then what else could it possibly be? Pretty much everything suggested has been done. Glow plugs all fine, but replaced any way. Relay working fine (better than the BX as well). New air filter, new oil, tried diesel additive. Starts (eventually) but really really ruff, then fine for the rest of the day. Also teds to kill the battery trying to start it (takes a lot f attempts and the battery is only tiny on the AX.). Anything else that can be suggested? Only thing i can think of that hasnt been done is an injector test, but this would give problems more often?
Some one suggested tappets as being the problem, what are they how hard are they to fix?
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
The garage i used come highly reccomended from various people locally (inclusive of other local garages), they only do engines so im hoping that the tester would be fairly accurate. Personally im thinking this is far too expensive for a head and rings job, but then its quoted (in that mysterious book mechanics have) as being an 11hr job. The guy reckons it wont take more than 8. Having had a quick flick through the not so useful Haynes it seems like it will take me a lot longer to do, and the car really needs to be going within the next week or so.
IF its not the rings, then what else could it possibly be? Pretty much everything suggested has been done. Glow plugs all fine, but replaced any way. Relay working fine (better than the BX as well). New air filter, new oil, tried diesel additive. Starts (eventually) but really really ruff, then fine for the rest of the day. Also teds to kill the battery trying to start it (takes a lot f attempts and the battery is only tiny on the AX.). Anything else that can be suggested? Only thing i can think of that hasnt been done is an injector test, but this would give problems more often?
Some one suggested tappets as being the problem, what are they how hard are they to fix?
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
Vanny,
I tried to find any previous thread on your starting fault (with Search) but couldn't. I don't want to wade in if you've had loads of good advice and it seemed to come down to the work you are considering was the only option.
But...I look after loads of Citroen diesels plus other makes. If they arrive in decent nick the first time I see them I never expect the engine to need bottom end work in the life of the car...regular oil and filter changes will take them onto huge mileages. That is not to say it's impossible you have a bore/compression problem...just that it is the least likely thing I'd look for.
Every single diesel starting issue I get involved with turns out to be glowplugs, cranking speed (battery or starter) or fuel supply (air usually).
Unless someone very experienced with these engines tells me so I don't think the compression figures are hopeless. Also the fact that it starts again later in the day is a pointer...this is so often an air ingress problem and if the compressions were so bad the engine would be a pig to start all the time.
We ran an abused BX TZD a while back that had poor compression. It smoked with burning oil and oozed the stuff from every seal...but with a strong battery, recent starter and no air issues it was a first time starter in all weathers.
Just to give you a final example a friend had a Volvo diesel with your sort of problem plus it smoked like the devil. The owner was driven to despair having to tow start it many mornings. In the end he let a chap have it who said it needed new rings and a part engine rebuild. Some £900 later it was together and damn me it behaved just the same when they tried to start it. About the only thing they hadn't done was to replace the starter...a new one was fitted and the thing span over quickly and fired up first go. £900 wasted and some red faces!
David
I tried to find any previous thread on your starting fault (with Search) but couldn't. I don't want to wade in if you've had loads of good advice and it seemed to come down to the work you are considering was the only option.
But...I look after loads of Citroen diesels plus other makes. If they arrive in decent nick the first time I see them I never expect the engine to need bottom end work in the life of the car...regular oil and filter changes will take them onto huge mileages. That is not to say it's impossible you have a bore/compression problem...just that it is the least likely thing I'd look for.
Every single diesel starting issue I get involved with turns out to be glowplugs, cranking speed (battery or starter) or fuel supply (air usually).
Unless someone very experienced with these engines tells me so I don't think the compression figures are hopeless. Also the fact that it starts again later in the day is a pointer...this is so often an air ingress problem and if the compressions were so bad the engine would be a pig to start all the time.
We ran an abused BX TZD a while back that had poor compression. It smoked with burning oil and oozed the stuff from every seal...but with a strong battery, recent starter and no air issues it was a first time starter in all weathers.
Just to give you a final example a friend had a Volvo diesel with your sort of problem plus it smoked like the devil. The owner was driven to despair having to tow start it many mornings. In the end he let a chap have it who said it needed new rings and a part engine rebuild. Some £900 later it was together and damn me it behaved just the same when they tried to start it. About the only thing they hadn't done was to replace the starter...a new one was fitted and the thing span over quickly and fired up first go. £900 wasted and some red faces!
David
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
It should start with those figures providing the glow plugs, starter and battery are ok and there is no air getting in there.
Crack the injector unions at the next cold start, get someone to whiz it over on the key while you watch for fuel (don't bother heating it), if there is fuel there straight away then examine the preheat circuit, and make sure you have both the correct, and quality plugs in there, that means Beru or Bosch in my book.
If there is no fuel at the open unions at the start of cranking then you simply have air getting in, I'm not familiar with this engine but if it has a bosch VE pump on, the air will be getting in through the return/leak off lines anywhere between the pump and the tank.
If any is getting in on the suction side it will usually only be a problem while the engine is running.
How do you eventually get it started anyway, if its jump leads then that might give a clue.
Dave
Crack the injector unions at the next cold start, get someone to whiz it over on the key while you watch for fuel (don't bother heating it), if there is fuel there straight away then examine the preheat circuit, and make sure you have both the correct, and quality plugs in there, that means Beru or Bosch in my book.
If there is no fuel at the open unions at the start of cranking then you simply have air getting in, I'm not familiar with this engine but if it has a bosch VE pump on, the air will be getting in through the return/leak off lines anywhere between the pump and the tank.
If any is getting in on the suction side it will usually only be a problem while the engine is running.
How do you eventually get it started anyway, if its jump leads then that might give a clue.
Dave