car wont start :(
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- (Donor 2021)
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MG TF 135
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BMW R1200RT
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Honda V F R 800 5thG / MT500 Armstrong - x 39
car wont start :(
Chaps, i have a problem with a car I am trying to fix
its not French, but does begin with 'F' 1.8 Petrol, rail injection
It has sparks (2 brighter then than other two, a plug issue as i have tried swapping the leads),
fuel to/from the injection rail,
the fuel pump pressurises with ignition on..
there is power to the injectors, a constant 12v on ignition...
I am stuck really..
3 questions,
Is it possible that the fuel pump is pressurising, but not enough to get fuel through injectors? i.e. an inefficent pump?
how can I check the injectors are working?
could two weak sparks be the cause, seems to easy...
thanks
John
its not French, but does begin with 'F' 1.8 Petrol, rail injection
It has sparks (2 brighter then than other two, a plug issue as i have tried swapping the leads),
fuel to/from the injection rail,
the fuel pump pressurises with ignition on..
there is power to the injectors, a constant 12v on ignition...
I am stuck really..
3 questions,
Is it possible that the fuel pump is pressurising, but not enough to get fuel through injectors? i.e. an inefficent pump?
how can I check the injectors are working?
could two weak sparks be the cause, seems to easy...
thanks
John
- CitroJim
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Hi John,
The constant 12v to the injectors may be normal. It is on a Bosch system. The injectors are activated by earthing them.
The simplest method of seeing if the injectors are working is to listen to one through a stethoscope whilst the engine is cranking. You should hear them ticking. On a Pug or Cit the ticking is very pronounced at idle and it sounds like tappets needing adjustment.
Otherwise, use an oscilloscope across them or use an analogue voltmeter. The needle will measure the mean voltage across them and you may even see the needle flicking as they fire.
Even if you have sparks and injection, the engine may still refuse to start as the air:fuel ratio must be pretty nigh exact to allow a start. If it is way out it will not even fire.
The usual suspect on the F*** is the mass air sensor just downwind of the air-filter. It's a hot-wire one and a bit delicate.
Fuel pressure is an unlikely cause unless the regulator has gone completely and the fuel pressure is very low. You can do a rough test by letting the pump run, shut off and then carefully poke the schrader valve on the fuel rail (under a blue cap) whilst covering it with a rag and judging roughly the pressure released. You can even put a dial-type tyre gauge on it. Look for 2.5 bars or so.
The sparks may be a red herring. The coils are of the double-ended wasted spark type so one spark will be positive and the other negative. I'd expect them to look different because of this.
Hope that helps a little. SWMBO had a Fiesta as her first driving school car and then passed it on to our eldest son. I got to know F***s very well over the years as Dad also ran them until I converted him. SWMBO now rus a C3 as her tuition car
The constant 12v to the injectors may be normal. It is on a Bosch system. The injectors are activated by earthing them.
The simplest method of seeing if the injectors are working is to listen to one through a stethoscope whilst the engine is cranking. You should hear them ticking. On a Pug or Cit the ticking is very pronounced at idle and it sounds like tappets needing adjustment.
Otherwise, use an oscilloscope across them or use an analogue voltmeter. The needle will measure the mean voltage across them and you may even see the needle flicking as they fire.
Even if you have sparks and injection, the engine may still refuse to start as the air:fuel ratio must be pretty nigh exact to allow a start. If it is way out it will not even fire.
The usual suspect on the F*** is the mass air sensor just downwind of the air-filter. It's a hot-wire one and a bit delicate.
Fuel pressure is an unlikely cause unless the regulator has gone completely and the fuel pressure is very low. You can do a rough test by letting the pump run, shut off and then carefully poke the schrader valve on the fuel rail (under a blue cap) whilst covering it with a rag and judging roughly the pressure released. You can even put a dial-type tyre gauge on it. Look for 2.5 bars or so.
The sparks may be a red herring. The coils are of the double-ended wasted spark type so one spark will be positive and the other negative. I'd expect them to look different because of this.
Hope that helps a little. SWMBO had a Fiesta as her first driving school car and then passed it on to our eldest son. I got to know F***s very well over the years as Dad also ran them until I converted him. SWMBO now rus a C3 as her tuition car
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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- (Donor 2021)
- Posts: 4625
- Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 19:07
- Location: Kent / Susssex
- My Cars: 2010 C5 X7 2.0 hdi 160 exc auto
MG TF 135
Boxer II 2.2 camper conversion
BMW R1200RT
BMW K1300 R
Honda V F R 800 5thG / MT500 Armstrong - x 39
Jim many thanks great help!
I pulled an injector out and turned the engine over, and I thought I could feel it clicking in my hand..
Will try the analogue VM too. as another test.
I have swapped the regulator with a known working one to no avail.
I have removed the blue valve cap, and (i will check again) but i thought the drizzle of fuel from the valve wasnt that high - after pressurising.. saying that, when i removed either the fuel feed or return and put ignition on, there was plenty of fuel spraying around..
hmm...
glad SWMBO has moved to the correct side
John
I pulled an injector out and turned the engine over, and I thought I could feel it clicking in my hand..
Will try the analogue VM too. as another test.
I have swapped the regulator with a known working one to no avail.
I have removed the blue valve cap, and (i will check again) but i thought the drizzle of fuel from the valve wasnt that high - after pressurising.. saying that, when i removed either the fuel feed or return and put ignition on, there was plenty of fuel spraying around..
hmm...
glad SWMBO has moved to the correct side
John
- CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
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- x 6160
- Contact:
Very unlikely I would have thought John. They're hemi combuistion chambers, 4 valves per pot and inclined. They're going to bend big-timejgra1 wrote:Well the problem was stupidly obvious, quite how the recovery guy missed it. .....
Cambelt fallen of the camshafts... not sure if it's snapped, still feels taught.. anyway, I dont suppose anyone knows if a Zetec engine will cope with this or not?
John
Having said that, the Zetec is a nice motor to work on and you can have the old head off and a new one on with ease. There is nothing complex about them
The big hassle is timing them. You must use the kit to find the crank timing point and cam lock point. The cambelt sprockets are on tapers with no woodruff keys so you have to be very careful to torque up the two cam and crank bolts to exactly the right figures to prevent slippage.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
youi could fit a new belt unless the old one has all its teeth, if so refit it after setting all the relavant timming points, then give it a compresion test, although you might find one of the tensioners/jocky wheels have colapsed
regards malcolm
regards malcolm
Last edited by citronut on 06 Oct 2007, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
-
- (Donor 2021)
- Posts: 4625
- Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 19:07
- Location: Kent / Susssex
- My Cars: 2010 C5 X7 2.0 hdi 160 exc auto
MG TF 135
Boxer II 2.2 camper conversion
BMW R1200RT
BMW K1300 R
Honda V F R 800 5thG / MT500 Armstrong - x 39
16 valve ford, cambelt 'fell off' sprockets
ahh,,
Cambelt idler pulley is a steel center with a plastic outer.. the plastic is now seperated and also in a few parts.... methinks the belt and tensioner are/were way past service life
definate compression on 4, 3, 2 - 1 has nothing... asssuming 1-4 valves got it..
Told her I would do it for 2-250.. based on 2 saturday's work and parts.. seem reasonable? not sure what a garage would charge for a partial head rebuild?
thats working outside in nasty conditions...
Would you skim the head? no sign of HG troubles... I know its a fair effort to get it removed, and for £20 why not.. maybe it was damaged during the interference...
thanks as always
John
Cambelt idler pulley is a steel center with a plastic outer.. the plastic is now seperated and also in a few parts.... methinks the belt and tensioner are/were way past service life
definate compression on 4, 3, 2 - 1 has nothing... asssuming 1-4 valves got it..
Told her I would do it for 2-250.. based on 2 saturday's work and parts.. seem reasonable? not sure what a garage would charge for a partial head rebuild?
thats working outside in nasty conditions...
Would you skim the head? no sign of HG troubles... I know its a fair effort to get it removed, and for £20 why not.. maybe it was damaged during the interference...
thanks as always
John
Professionals will have the head skimmed as a matter of course - how much will it cost to skim? How long will it take you to clean the old one? - that's the reason - it takes so long to clean if the gasket has stuck to it as many do and at current labour rates its not worth the trouble and you have peice of mind that its done and the head should seal properly.
So when you consider the cleaning time and the potential warranty claim - your decision is made.
Different if its your own car!
So when you consider the cleaning time and the potential warranty claim - your decision is made.
Different if its your own car!
jeremy
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- (Donor 2021)
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- Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 19:07
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- My Cars: 2010 C5 X7 2.0 hdi 160 exc auto
MG TF 135
Boxer II 2.2 camper conversion
BMW R1200RT
BMW K1300 R
Honda V F R 800 5thG / MT500 Armstrong - x 39
well the head rebuild all went back together nicely, in November
but.. a bad misfire is now occuring, esp on (heavy) throttle.. if you floor the throttle breifly, it almost cuts out.. car is almost undriveable
I have checked:
Temp gauge has always read a bit low.. but if this caused a misfire I wouldn't expect it to happen when engine is cold..
can anyone help ?.
John
but.. a bad misfire is now occuring, esp on (heavy) throttle.. if you floor the throttle breifly, it almost cuts out.. car is almost undriveable
I have checked:
- Coolant level fine, no HG symptoms
Oil ok (Correct grade for Zetec engines)
Compression, good on all four cyls
Spark plugs all fire when out of cylinders, and all same colour.. failry lean
Leads and HT pack swapped
removed and cleaned TDC sensor
jiggles wires to ECU
general visual check of Vac pipes etc
Temp gauge has always read a bit low.. but if this caused a misfire I wouldn't expect it to happen when engine is cold..
can anyone help ?.
John