Another Car

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 25 Jun 2007, 01:35

Couldn't help it - bought a "106 Diesel 3 Door Hatchback 1527 cc
Registerd March 1995 110,000 miles" - £101.00 with 5 months MOT

Had the 1.4 diesel before and it was a good laugh and cheap to run.

Evidently the engine died one night but was restarted but "smoked a little and had a rattle" - owner thinks its the injectors

Dont know much about the car but apparently there may be a problem with the injectors which are currently out of the car.

Before I start by putting the injectors back in and getting the thing running after the usual change of filters and fluids does anyone know whether the injectors are interchangeable with units from other engines/makes of car - at least if I end up down the breakers I will be able to maximise the chance of getting a set.

Is it likely the timing belt may have slipped and would this cause the rattle and smoke as the engine is running out of sync ?

Bet this is going to cost a fortune and a second hand engine - lol

Seemed a good idea at the time - lol

Post by **CitroJim** » 25 Jun 2007, 08:00

Hi Ross,

Those little TUDs are great

Especially in a 106.

It's very unlikely to be injectors. Duff ones usually cause smoke and low power but generally, they're very trouble-free.

Going on your symptoms, I'd say timing has slipped for some reason or another. Now, I'm not very familiar with the TUD and what pump it has or wether or not it is fully mechanical or semi-electronic. Let me know but generally, if it stopped, restarted, rattled and smoked this certainly sounds like duff timing. Just a wee bit off and the engine will run like a bag of spanners and smoke.

I'd firstly check the cam/crank/pump timing and ensurwe this is absolutely spot-on. Then, if the pump is a semi-electronic job then the problem can be caused bu a duff needle lift sensor on No.3 Injector or a duff TDC sensor. Possibly the Coolant Temperature Sensor too.

The needle lift sensor may be the reason why the previous owner thought the injectors had gone.

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 25 Jun 2007, 19:17

Thanks CJ - hoped it might be as you have suggested although I didnt know about the semi-electronic issues and the other suggested causes.

Glad your on this forum - spent ages reading posts on the Citroen forum

Still have the Xantia VSX TD - 150,000 and still pulling like a train - the 106 is more of a hobby as the Xantia is sorted (just for the moment no doubt) - glad you think its a good engine as I only had four minutes to decide to buy it - lol
Thanks

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 25 Jun 2007, 23:43

The timing may have slipped for some reason - but never by the cambelt. I cant see why that could happen - unless the belt tension is a disaster

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 27 Jun 2007, 07:07

Thank Anders for your comments - I am picking the car up Saturday and the seller is pretty adamant he thinks its the injectors although CJ says the symptoms are somewhat similar to when I last timed up a Sierra diesel slightly off - (lucky to get away with that one)

I was going to get the car home - refit the injectors - check the fluids - remove the cam belt covers to see if there was anything obvious and start the engine to see what exactly the problem is as the seller advises the engine runs but is a little noisy with some smoke but the comments seem a little vague at this stage.

Do you think I should add a compression test to this to check on the valves/head and retime the engine prior to starting with a new cam belt tensioner and water pump ? prior to starting and doing the Haynes injector test

Once started I was going to try using a cleaner additive to the fuel to clean the injectors

The Haynes manual suggests that to identify any defective injectors the engine should be running and the injector unions loosened one at a time - when the defective unit is undone the smoking and the noise will stop - is this correct (and safe)

Is there anyway to clean the injectors by soaking (possibly cellulose thinners)

All help, suggestions and advice gratefully received as always

Thanks
Ross

ps glad you are all on the Peugeot forum as well as the Citroen one

Post by **CitroJim** » 27 Jun 2007, 07:49

Hi Ross,

What you plan is just right, refit injectors, carefully check timing and check fluids and see what it is up to. Carefully check the belt tensioners and water pump whilst you're down there. Either of these being very worn can cause the belt to jump a tooth or two.

Let us know what Injection Pump is fitted Ross, as this can have a bearing on the symptoms you have.

A compression test on a diesel is not easy like in a petrol engine. A normal petrol compression gauge cannot be used. A "leak-down" test is performed on a diesel and this measures how long a cylinder will hold a given pressure and how fast it falls. Compressed air is used for this test. I find a good "rule of thumb" is to slowly rotate the engine on the crank bolt with a "T" bar and socket and "feel" the four compressions. If they all feel equal and you have to exert a reasonable force to get them over compression then they're not too bad. I stress it is only a rough test but it'll locate a cyliner or two that is well down.

Good idea on the use of an additive. They do seem to work and cannot do any harm.

Haynes is right about diagnosing a suspect injector/cylinder but be careful, diesel under pressure can cut skin like a knife and it is not best for your health to have diesel injected into you under pressure! Just barely loosen the injector union and wrap it tightly with a thick layer of rag.

Injectors cannot be cleaned by soaking but they're not hard to disassemble if you have a big vice and a suitable big ring spanner. Take care to note how it they are assembled and take care not to loose any shims under the (strong) spring. The needle and seat can then be inspected and carefully cleaned. If you take a fistful of injectors to your local diesel specialiast he won't charge the earth to test them for pressure and spray pattern; you've done the hard work for him already!

Looking forwared to your next report Ross!

Brian UK · Post by **Brian UK** » 27 Jun 2007, 10:52

The 1.5 D engine is different to the 1.4 in many ways. It is also better.
It has a moveable hub on the camshaft sprocket which allows equalisation of the belt tension I think. If the tree retaining bolts on this hub have loosened off, then the timing will have shifted on the camshaft. If the belt is loose it could also have jumped a tooth or two.
At 110k it should have had the belt changed at least once so far, do you know when this was last done?
The belt tensioner is an eccentrically mounted roller, and if the central pinch bolt for this has loosened, again you would get your current symptoms.
Those engines were also known for closing up the valve clearances. This in turn gives very poor HOT starting. Worth checking this if you have the cam belt off.

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 27 Jun 2007, 17:41

You just cant beat the French Car Forum - where else could you get this level of Technical support, given in good faith by people who are interested

Thanks one and all - will keep you posted

Ross

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 01 Jul 2007, 19:48

Picked up the car and it would apear the first problem is to obtain all four pump to injector pipes as it seems they are bent so far out of shape I have no idea what goes where ( the injectors were fitted to the pipe but sitting on the rocker cover)

Any ideas how much the pipes cost ? either new or from the breakers

It appears that an attempt has been made to remove the belt cover as some fixings are missing

On a brighter note body is good - interior is good and will get better with a clean - new rad - new exhaust - 2 new tyres

And most of all - the injectors fit in the head and haven't been cross threaded

Must remeber to mark the connections on the pipes when I remove them as there is no clue as to what goes where
So its down to the shop tomorrow and probably the breakers next weekend

One last question - how much are injectors at the breakers ?

Thanks
Ross

Post by **CitroJim** » 01 Jul 2007, 20:11

Looking good Ross

Those injector pipes are critical to good and safe running. Not only from a pressure/safety aspect but from a performance one too. They are formed carefully to avoid cavitation and should never be handled so roughly that they get bent out of shape. The trick is to undo all unions before attempting to move the pipes and keep them as a unit as far as possible. Sounds like someone was heavy-handed there. Thank goodness none of the injectors were cross-threaded

The breakers should provide but ensure they are from exactly the same engine with exactly the same pump. They differ between pumps. Ditto injectors. Neither injectors nor pipes can be mixed and matched between Bosch and Lucas for example.

The cost? Well, in my experience, it depends on the totter and the yard. Some are wickedly expensive and others are silly cheap. Those that allow you to strip the bits yourself seem cheapest as these yards appear to me to be more interested in scrap metal than salvaged car spares; you're helping them ready the car for the crusher

Those places that put the emphasis on reclaimed spares that are already removed will be dearer. It helps if you go to the former sort of yard to take a BIG toolbox with you. It is amazing what can accidentially fall into your toolbox completely unbeknown to you

Brian UK · Post by **Brian UK** » 03 Jul 2007, 09:52

citrojim wrote: It helps if you go to the former sort of yard to take a BIG toolbox with you. It is amazing what can accidentially fall into your toolbox completely unbeknown to you

Oh, dear, leading innocent people astray is not good.

As if I would ever think of doing such a thing. Where do you suppose I get all my spare headlight bulbs from?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 03 Jul 2007, 13:25

grown up men discussing bulbs in their pockets

Brian UK · Post by **Brian UK** » 03 Jul 2007, 16:33

I thought the suggestion was that they went in the tool box, but perhaps that's not such a good suggestion either.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 04 Jul 2007, 01:31

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 04 Jul 2007, 19:43

Went to all the local breakers and either

1. They didnt have the vehicle
2. They had the engine and probably the pipes in a 20 foot high pile of engines if I could find them (or recognise the right engine in the pile)
3. they would sell me an engine with the pipes but not just the pipes
4. If they had them it would have been £30 to £40

Went to local Main Dealer and bought a new set for £41 +vat
Its done for about £6 to £18 pounds more and at least I can get on with the job in hand (bought the copper washers for the injectors and the other thin pipework for the injectors)

Going to connect and bleed the system tomorrow and try starting the engine.