xantia sphere replacement

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admiral51
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xantia sphere replacement

Post by admiral51 »

apaologies if this is a rerun/crossover of other posts but here goes

i am now aware that my xantia 1.9d lx has anti-sink which at present is not working. :roll:
i have checked with local dealers and the spec says it has anti-sink and they very kindly gave me a quote for the 2 rear spheres and the anti-sink sphere :cry:
the prices are £42.55 +vat for rear each and £71.38 + vat for anti-sink :lol:
now im not a complete idiot (some parts are missing 8) ) and have no desire to line their pockets but are the prices quoted on gsf for equivialnt parts as they are a lot cheaper

i want to replace all rear spheres inc anti-sink and prob o/s front as n/s has been done and so has accumulator in last 3months
can i change all rear spheres in one go ie when i do one i can remove/replace the others
sorry for the length of post but tried to cover bases in one go
cheers colin
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Post by LeeDJC »

Yes, you can change them all at the same time. There's LOADS of info on the forum covering changing spheres already.

I can't stress enough, however, what ever you do, make sure your car is firmly supported on stands before you do ANYTHING. These cars can drop suddenly, particularly if you are removing spheres. People have died by not following this advice!

If you need any help though, there's a lot of very helpful and friendly souls here, who are more than willing to sort you out ;)
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Post by LeeDJC »

I've just noticed that you've got a 1.9D. I've got 4, 6 month old corner spheres that will fit your car if you want them. £40+P&P

I was going to sell my 1.9D since I just bought an estate, but I've decided to pull it apart for spares.
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Post by AndersDK »

Yes the spheres from GSF are compatible, the correct spec and proven quality.

However I dont think it helps on your antisink problem replacing the antisink sphere, as this sphere is a pressure reserve for the rear brakes. It is incorporated because the antisink system cuts the line from the rear suspension spheres to the brake valve. Thats why the 'antisink' sphere designation.
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Post by CitroJim »

I always believed it was called an anti-sink sphere because as a side effect of it's primary role it helps prevent the rear sinking and then rising again when the car is first started up after a long rest.

It is another of those happy accidents of Citroen hydraulic design in a similar way to the dead-simple method of rear brake pressure compensation for load by taking the rear brake pressure supply from the rear suspension.

It really would be much better if the sphere in question was called a rear brake accumulator or something.

I wonder why the garage quoted such a high price for this sphere?
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Post by Mandrake »

AndersDK wrote:Yes the spheres from GSF are compatible, the correct spec and proven quality.

However I dont think it helps on your antisink problem replacing the antisink sphere, as this sphere is a pressure reserve for the rear brakes. It is incorporated because the antisink system cuts the line from the rear suspension spheres to the brake valve. Thats why the 'antisink' sphere designation.
Agreed.

The anti-sink sphere has very little effect on how long it takes to sink. My anti-sink sphere was completely punctured and it still stayed up 12 hours easily. When I replaced it there was almost no difference in the sinking time.

What has changed though is it takes longer for the rear to lift in the mornings :( (Makes perfect sense because you now have an extra sphere to partially fill with oil, whereas a punctured sphere is always full)

Regards,
Simon
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Post by admiral51 »

thanks all most helpful and now im confused :oops:
i thought the anti-sink sphere was meant to stop the car sinking but from what you say it appears the sphere should be renamed as the car will sink anyway :)
i will replace them all as they look like they are the originals (now 11 yrs old) should stop a very bouncey ride
the rear center sphere(antisink) code citroen gave me was 96045530 could this be for a later model that has more than 6 spheres on it??
thanks lee will pm you about spheres
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Post by Xaccers »

That code is for a hydractive centre sphere, not an anti sink sphere (which has the citroen code of 96145672, GSF/AMTEX code N45372)
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DIY sphere tool
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Post by admiral51 »

thanks Xac why did i trust the dealer :lol:
i even gave them the registration doc with all relevent numbers on it and still they got it wrong
think its off to gsf for the right part ever so slightly cheaper
colin
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Post by RichardW »

A xantia with Anti-sink should stay up almost indefinitely if the A/S valves are working. My VSX sinks at the back most of the time almost straight after it is shut down - however, stay in the car a minute or so, and get out and it stays up in an artificially high postion for days :P
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Post by admiral51 »

with regards to the rear center sphere does this have any effect on the rear suspension whilst car is being driven or is it inpart related to the rear brakes
i only ask cos as soon as key switched off the car sinks and if it has no detrimental (thats a big word for me) effect on anything else can i get away with leaving its replacement
rear suspension is quite flat bit like a "normal" car when the struts have gone and i can hear a knocking when running over uneven surfaces esp speed ramps
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Post by AndersDK »

Right Colin -

By your description of symptoms it seems that you have a mix of different problems.

Lets get clear on the suspension itself : the part of the hydraulics that makes the wheels move softly relative to the chassis.
Have the height setting in normal (drive) position, handbrakes on, select neutral, and let engine idle.

First check is to remove any trapped air in the suspension hydraulic system. This is done by doing the Citaerobics : setting the height lever to full height, then setting it to lowest. At each setting you must allow the system to reach the height setting selected. The cycle is repeated 5 times.
The hydraulic oil will shift back & forth in the system and any trapped air will be moved to the reservoir and vented there.
Air in the hydraulics will make for most weird behaviours in the suspension, can even completely cheat you to think the spheres are flat.

Next check is to find out if you have any suspension left at all on the wheels.

Now you jerk down each corner of the car to test if there is a soft suspension. It should feels just like any other normal car, as thats how any suspension basically works !
Rear corners should be rather easy to press down 2"-3", front corners a little less like 2".
If any corner wont press down and feels like only the tyre rubber suspends, then that corners wheel sphere is flat and must be replaced.
They are always replaced in pairs, like you do both shockers or springs on same axle.

Third check is the main accumulator sphere. This is the one that is located on the front of the engine block. If you can hear a constant ticking hissing with short intervals - like some 5 -15 seconds, this indicates a flat main accumulator sphere. The proof is that the ticking comes much faster if you work your foot up & down on the brake pedal, as this will use up quite some pressure stored in the main sphere.
The ticking & hissing is BTW the pressure regulator's under and over pressure valves cutting in/out to maintain a nearly constant system pressure. The ticking/hissing sound should come at intervals of some 30 seconds - or even more - to indicate the system is in good working condition.

The antisink system incorporates a cut-off valve in both front and rear suspension circuits. The valves will block the feed line to the wheel spheres, thus leaving the pressure as is when you stop the engine. There are no electric or electronic components involved, its completely hydraulically controlled - by pressure differentials.
These valves are known to fail with the symptom you have - i.e. the affected end of car falling like a shot deer.

The rear antisink sphere is as described above : a rear brakes accumulator which is incorporated because of the antisink system fitted. This also means you wont find this sphere on the low end models with no antisink system (which I dont believe were sold in UK anyway).
It can be tested by lifting rear wheels off ground while the rear suspension is still loaded, i.e. the rear is lifted on the rear suspension arms, and then check the rear wheels DO in fact brake when the pedal is pressed. Engine must not be running. A good sphere should hold pressure to make the pedal brake the rear wheels at least some 10-20 times.
Fiddly and quite dangerous to do !
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Post by Mandrake »

AndersDK wrote:The rear antisink sphere is as described above : a rear brakes accumulator which is incorporated because of the antisink system fitted. This also means you wont find this sphere on the low end models with no antisink system (which I dont believe were sold in UK anyway).
It can be tested by lifting rear wheels off ground while the rear suspension is still loaded, i.e. the rear is lifted on the rear suspension arms, and then check the rear wheels DO in fact brake when the pedal is pressed. Engine must not be running. A good sphere should hold pressure to make the pedal brake the rear wheels at least some 10-20 times.
Fiddly and quite dangerous to do !
For that test to be valid the pressure regulator bleed screw would also need to be opened - this would ensure the anti-sink valve was immediately closed.

Otherwise if the main accumulator sphere is good, the anti-sink valves will remain open for some time, so the rear suspension could be operating the brakes instead of the anti-sink sphere.

Also this test is not valid if the anti-sink valve itself is faulty, which it sounds like it may be on this car.

I'm not sure how useful this test is given the danger and difficulty of doing it, the anti-sink sphere would have to be nearly completely flat or punctured for there to be insufficient braking for the rear wheels to be turned by hand with the brake pedal applied...

Regards,
Simon
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Post by AndersDK »

Ok Simon -

The antisink valves must of course be given time to cut in to make any sense testing like this.
And I forgot : when the antisink valve has cut out the rear suspension, there is NO NEED TO LOAD the rear suspension for brakes pressure. Because thats exactly why the antisink sphere is fitted there in the first place !
So actually you can lift the rear wheels off ground as usual and make the test by turning the wheels 8)
Silly me - I am getting older :lol:

You will be surprised how much pressure is in fact needed to block the rear wheels - pressing the pedal 10-20 times. A flat or near flat antisink sphere wont hold near that pressure.
Its not the force holding the wheel you need to test : its the work the hydraulics have to do pressing out the piston in the caliper. This consumes pressure every time you press & release the brake pedal. You only try turn the wheel to ensure the brakes are in fact working. When they cant hold the wheel - there is no pressure left.

The same test applies for the front brakes by the main accumulator, but here there is no influence from the antisink, WHEN the safety valve has cut off.
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Post by Mandrake »

Yes some good points there Anders - how about this for a simpler and safer test that can even be done with only the normal wheel change jack ?

Car running at normal height on the ground, lift the suspension right up, insert the wheel change jack at a rear jacking point, lower the suspension to normal height and wait for that rear wheel to lift off the ground and stabalize - all as you normally would to change a flat tyre.

Now turn off the engine and open the pressure regulator bleed screw - the anti-sink valves are now closed for sure. (Unless they are faulty)

Now apply the brake repeatedly with a friend trying to turn the wheel during each application.

No brakes or only 1-2 applications - anti-sink sphere fails. Many applications (10+) - anti-sink sphere passes.

Sound reasonable ? I actually have access to a Xantia that has a flat anti-sink sphere (and also to mine which has a new anti-sink sphere) so I might try this and see if it works...

Regards,
Simon
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