tracking... again

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deian
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tracking... again

Post by deian »

hi guys,

on my second xantia now, and time has come for new front tyres and tracking, got them done, but for the love of god, why can't these 'mechanics' do the friggin tracking properly?? ok maybe 'technically' the tracking was ok, but when the steering wheel was at 1 o clock before they did it, and 2 o clock after the did it, and then still on 2 o clock the second time they did it, and still pulls after the third time!!!?? What on earth is going on?

Anyway, can someone confirm what the exact citroen specification for the tracking should be... i think they should be toe in more than toe out, but i'm not sure by how much.

Thanks
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Post by Mandrake »

It sounds like they just adjusted the tie-rod on one side, and didn't check the centering of the rack...It could also be that the steering wheel position is incorrect.

Last time I got my wheel alignment done they were very careful to adjust it on both sides and make sure the rack was centered properly - if they just set the toe out and don't check the centering they're doing a half assed job.

It's supposed to be toe out, not toe in, but I don't have the figures in front of me, but I can look them up tonight for you...

Regards,
Simon
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Post by deian »

that would be great simon,

i asked them to check if the rack was in the middle, they mumbled something and quickly walk down to the pit, half arsed indeed!!

i'll go back to my older thread i started last year and read up on the techniques... if anyone can find that thread for me i'd be most grateful, i don't want to annoy the admins by re-asking the same things.
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Post by RichardW »

Pretty sure the Xantia is 0.5° toe out.

I'd ignore the steering wheel position for a minute - get the tracking set so it runs straight, and isn' feathering the edge of tyres (soon becomes obvious if it's wrong), then if necessary adjust both track rods equally to centre the steering wheel.
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Post by Mandrake »

The data I have says 0 to -3mm, eg 0 to 3 mm toe out, on all models after 1996 except Activa.

I'm not 100% sure if this includes the V6 as well, as my book doesn't cover the V6, but I would imagine it would be the same, as the Activa seems to be the only Xantia that has lots of fundamental differences in suspension/steering geometry...(almost everything is different in small detail)

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Simon
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Post by deian »

Would toe-ing the wheels out make the steering sharper? as in... not tramlining,

i seem to remember the wheels jumping on one another when wet at an underground car park (it was pouring with rain, and the floor was slippery even when dry) when the wheels were at full lock.

0.5° and 0° - 3.0°...any other offers, to confirm? I imagine the V6 to be the same too, but it does have bigger brakes up front, not sure if this means something for the tracking.

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Post by Xaccers »

I took mine to Kwik-Fit (I know! I know! But they were just up the road) and the completely ballsed it up the first time, and didn't do a particularly good job of rectifying it.
Took CitroJim's advice and popped along to Formula1 who did a fantastic job, managed to keep the steering wheel locked and level, and invited me under the car to watch them do a proper job.
Tracking and steering wheel was bang on afterwards.
They even said I could come back in a month and they'd recheck and adjust if required for free.
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Post by Mandrake »

deian wrote:Would toe-ing the wheels out make the steering sharper? as in... not tramlining,
Generally more toe-out makes the self centering of the steering stronger, (it will pull towards straight ahead more) too much and the steering will get heavy and the tyres will wear faster, not enough and the steering may become a bit imprecise and it may wander from left to right a bit.
i seem to remember the wheels jumping on one another when wet at an underground car park (it was pouring with rain, and the floor was slippery even when dry) when the wheels were at full lock.
Thats not toe-out errors (unless the error was HUGE) thats simply poor geometry and wheel tracking in the design due to the McPherson struts - all Xantia's have poor geometry on full lock....(the outside wheel leans out on full lock - like most McPherson strut cars)
0.5° and 0° - 3.0°...any other offers, to confirm? I imagine the V6 to be the same too, but it does have bigger brakes up front, not sure if this means something for the tracking.
Note - I didn't say 0 to 3 degrees, I said 0 to 3mm. Not the same thing.

Regards,
Simon
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Post by deian »

Mandrake wrote: Note - I didn't say 0 to 3 degrees, I said 0 to 3mm. Not the same thing.

Regards,
Simon
I stand corrected! So whats 3mm in °? If I can get the right data, I can then go to a proper tracking place and give them the figures. But tell them to make sure the rack is centered first.

Commercially 'qualified' mechanics infuriate me, here's me with nothing but 'home fiddling on cars' to back my knowledge up, and they go to college for 2 years, get a job and call themselves qualified, maybe some of them are, and some of them are good, but the majority I have come across use poor practise and no common sense. And this is not just me saying 'do it my way cos my way is better', sometimes you will see pure stupidity from these so called 'mechanics'.
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Post by LeeDJC »

Don't forget to take into consideration the amount of different cars a mechanic has to deal with. Whereas you've only got to worry about one or maybe two at any one time.

All cars have there own little quirks, and trying to get your head round them all must be a nightmare.

I'm not trying to justify incompetent mechanics, but this may be something worth taking into consideration ;)
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Post by Mandrake »

deian wrote:
Mandrake wrote: Note - I didn't say 0 to 3 degrees, I said 0 to 3mm. Not the same thing.

Regards,
Simon
I stand corrected! So whats 3mm in °?
I don't know what it is in degrees, but it is measured by the distance between the edge of the wheel rims at the back of the rim half way up the wheel, minus the same distance on the front edge of the rim...
If I can get the right data, I can then go to a proper tracking place and give them the figures. But tell them to make sure the rack is centered first.
The thing is, you shouldn't need to get them the right data!

Even here in NZ where Citroens are quite rare, last time I got my wheel alignment done, they just looked up the model and year in their computer database and it has all the manufacturers figures.

If they don't know the correct settings are by looking it up on their database go somewhere else!
Commercially 'qualified' mechanics infuriate me, here's me with nothing but 'home fiddling on cars' to back my knowledge up, and they go to college for 2 years, get a job and call themselves qualified, maybe some of them are, and some of them are good, but the majority I have come across use poor practise and no common sense. And this is not just me saying 'do it my way cos my way is better', sometimes you will see pure stupidity from these so called 'mechanics'.
Yep, I fully agree - there are a few good mechanics around but a large percentage of them are either incompetant, inept, or just sloppy/lazy, which is one reason I prefer to do as much maintainance myself as I can...

It doesn't just apply to Citroen either (although the situation is worse due to the unfamiliarity with them from most mechanics) when I had a Daihatsu Charade Turbo with a couple of front discs that needed skiming, a so called "brake specialist" with all the fancy equipment made a complete hash of it, I took it back in twice under guarentee, they simply couldn't get it right, so I gave up on it in the end.

Same car had a problem with the gasket between the exhaust mainfold and the turbo - it burnt out within 6 months of me buying it, under guarentee they replaced it - with the same incorrect gasket material and lots of goo, so it lasted about another 6 months and then burnt out again, just outside their year warranty of course.

I ended up making a home made copper gasket for it, and it lasted 8 years with no leaks until I got rid of the car.....(and was still fine) :roll:

If you're familiar with the turbo version of those 3 cylinder engines you'll know the exhaust manifold where the turbo bolts on gets WAY too hot for a standard composite gasket to last...

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
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1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Post by deian »

I agree with that, but for the money you pay them they should know the basics surely. And they spend all day fiddling. Anyway, rant over.
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Post by Xaccers »

Some garages pay their mechanics bonuses if they do the job in a shorter time than the book says, that way they can get more business through the garage in a day.
Problem is, if they're anything like an ex-mechanic mate of mine, they cut corners to do it, though it eventually got him the sack.
So if anyone had their car serviced at the Land Rover garage in Newport Pagnell in the past year, well... ;)
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Post by LeeDJC »

Which is why homer servicing is ALWAYS better! At least you KNOW what hasn't been done!
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deian
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Post by deian »

TRACKING FIGURES

0 to -3 mm
0° at -0°25'

Data
Wheel alignment Castor Camber King pin inclination
Steering Adjustable Not adjustable Not adjustable Not adjustable
Mechanical 0 to -3 mm 1 ° 0 ° 00 ' ± 30 ' 13 ° 20 '
Power assisted 0 ° 00 ' to -0 ° 25 ' 3 °

So it's up to -0°25'

And the -3mm is just for the non power steering then?
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