2.0 HDI, Oh why did I say yes?????

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slim123
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2.0 HDI, Oh why did I say yes?????

Post by slim123 »

The story.

A chap down the road had the aux belt come off his HDI engine, now rather than look for the reason, he pops a new one on. Well 50 miles later, the new belt comes off and the engine stops.

He came and asked my what might be wrong, so I told him that the auto tesioner at the top will be leaning over and the belt will have slipped inwards and gone in around the crankshaft pulley causing the cam belt to either jump or snap. Guess what? I was right.

So he then begs me to have a look, so I removed the covers and rocker box to reveal 1 x snapped belt and 5 x broken rockers. By now the poor chap was nearly in tears and asked if it could be fixed, I said yes, but not by me!!! After a few tears, a can of expensive lager and so on I found myself agreeing to fix the thing!

Well today him armed with the parts and me with a hammer and some pliers I set to work, it,s not too bad a job to do but now with it all back together I have 4 x good compressions but no start!!!

Nearly finished!

My thoughts are that the camshaft pulley has moved on the camshaft (suspected by the 16mm bolt being quite loose) so the timing although is correct by the pin method, aint right.

Anybody know an easy way of checking this as its so long since I have been this far in I have forgotten! Also why dont they key the thing like the old XUD engine, much easier and impossible to get wrong??

Any ideas would be taken in and pondered over.

The car is a Peugot 406 2.0 HDI. I know that I should post on the Peugot bit, but it is the same as the Xantia and replys are much quicker here.

Ever wish you hadnt started????

Regards
Slim.
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Post by deian »

Oh oh slim... watch in case he sues you!

Sounds like the diesel pump ain't in time with the engine, could have slipped or something... unless a plug is knocked off or something... gotta be something simple. You'd know it was purely mechanical, good luck, sorry i can't be too much help. I'm a bit useless sometimes.
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Post by CitroJim »

Yes Slim, I know how you feel :wink: Any Activa owner knows exactly :roll: I've been there a few times myself.

Now, thinking laterally a bit, if you have 4 good compressions you are either dead right or 180 degrees out, otherwise I reckon you'd not have 4 compressions or you'd have valves kissing pistons. Trouble is you can't set it on first principles because all the timing is electronic via sensors. I wonder if someone on here can supply a picture showing the cam lobe orientation with the crank pinned in the right position?

I'm wondering too, guessing how many wires and connectors are around, if it is simply a case that a connector is off somewhere? Has it a cam position sensor? (sorry, I'm not well up on the HDi) and has this become damaged through the carnage that resulted from the broken rockers? They're not unlike an ABS sensor and not tremendously robust in the face of bits of metal hurling around.

All thes best with this Slim and I trust the morning will revel the solution :wink:
Jim

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slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Cant be the pump, as the pump on the HDI does not need timing, it is simply a pressure pump that supplys high pressure to the fuel rail, the injectors are controled by electrics. much the same as a petrol injection system.

I am thinking sensor or wire knocked off too as the bloody thing aint even chuffing.

But I would like to see a piccy of the cam lobe positions whilst the pin is in the flywheel.

I have googled for it but I cant find anything. :(

Regards
Slim
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Post by jeremy »

What triggers the injection? Is it possible that when No 1 is at peak compression its firing No 4 injector?
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Post by AndersDK »

IIRC there is a crank angle sensor somewhere on the HDI.
This must be the pendant to the petrol TDC sensor and thus have much the same function.
But how the ECU calculates which cylinder to inject is beyond my knowledge.
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Post by wheeler »

Is the cam posittion sensor adjusted ok ? the screw should be loosened & the sensor pushed up against the pulley then back it off about 1mm.
Could also be the woodruff key in the cam pulley sheared off,its part of the pulley itself so as long as its still there then if you peg the camshaft it must be sitting correctly.
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Post by slim123 »

Yes there is a sensor but this is on the camshaft not the crank, (there may be a crank also)

I will check the distance, as when you spin the starter, all sounds fine except, no start!

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Regards
Slim.
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Post by AndersDK »

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=21842

CAMshaft sensor ? That makes sense as this will identify each cylinder at compression like an ignition distributor.
But still also to work in conjunction with a CRANKaxle sensor ????
Please continue to correct me folks :roll:
I'm on a steep learning curve on HDI's.

Thanx
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Post by reblack68 »

Does it have hydraulic tappets? I've heard of petrol cars refusing to start after this sort of work and then being fine the next day.
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Post by Mandrake »

Check the wiring to the ECU!!! In particular the big multiwire connector on the unit itself!

After doing the cambelt on my (petrol) Xantia the car wouldn't start - it would turn over perfectly but not the slightest kick of life from it. I double checked everything, disconnected and reconnected the battery, still nothing. Spent half an hour chasing various posibilities but with no result.

Finally I removed the plug from the ECU (even though I hadn't touched it in the cambelt job) saw a bit of corrosion on the contacts, gave all the contacts a good clean with LPS1 put it back on - presto, worked perfectly.

The only thing I can think of is that on that model you have to tug on the wiring a bit to get the plastic support above the engine mounting off and that somehow disturbed flakey contacts on the plug.

Could also be that you have disturbed a sensor at the engine end of the ECU wiring loom...

Regards,
Simon
Last edited by Mandrake on 18 May 2007, 20:44, edited 2 times in total.
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slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Yes I remember a vaxhaul years ago, the first hydraulic tappet job that I ever did, after rebuilding the head it refused to start, someone suggested a tow up the road and it worked fine after that.

Problem was that the hydraulic tappets were empty and needed oil pressure to work, but I don't think that this is the problem in this case as the head aint been apart, only been down as far as the camshaft.

I havent yet taken the camshaft pulley off the end, only tightened it when I discovered that it was loose. Does anybody know if they are pinned, keyed or just taper fit?

Shant be looking till monday as I have a busy weekend ahead.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

Regards
Slim.
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Post by Brian UK »

The camshaft pulley is keyed onto the shaft. there are two different types, depending on year. The later type is a plain pulley, and there is an enlarged keyway in the crankshaft pulley which you have to put a spacer into before fitting the belt. The earlier type has a keyed hub, and the outer bolts on and can be adjusted to get the belt on. Never understood the logic of that one.
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Post by wheeler »

AndersDK wrote:http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=21842

CAMshaft sensor ? That makes sense as this will identify each cylinder at compression like an ignition distributor.
But still also to work in conjunction with a CRANKaxle sensor ????
The cam sensor is only used for starting puposes,once the engine is running it can be disconected & it will continue to run fine but it wont restart again if switched off.
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Ah two good points here, I did not know that the cam sensor was a start up only.

It seems that this engine is the early one as it has a hub on the camshaft with the pulley fixed to it with 3 x bolts. In the past I have never adjusted here allthough the book says to on refitting a belt, I have allways treated this as an old fashioned type and left the adjusment alone ie dont fiddle if it runs fine. The adjustment here is for fine tuning, but very seldom needs it.

I guess that the first port of call when I get back to the car will be to slacken the cam belt and remove the cam pulley, I rekon that I am gonna find a broken key, I will let you kind people know.

The car is a 2002 with 270'000 miles on the clock, so lets face it certain things will be worn beyond tolerence!

Regards
Slim.
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